Evolution - "Targas" or Flybridge

[matm]

Hi,

So a while ago I posted this thread about "Soft-tops" vs "hard-tops" i.e. in my terms a Targa 44 Open vs a Targa 44 GT. http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?334612-Sports-(open)-boats-old-hat&highlight=

Was looking at different boats at the time but that's the principle of the thread. My evolution through boats. Couldn't afford the GT so that was an easier choice. Went with the "wind in your hair boat". Very happy! And still am.

So, now we've moved our boat to CD and we've given it one season (4 months!), we're having the debate about a bigger boat. "Targa" or "V" vs Flybridge. I know it's been done to death already but I'm really liking what I'm seeing on the "sports boats". Flame me but I always argue that I'm too old for a flybridge. I know I'm going to regret that..

I like Fairlines. I'm loyal. T50 is lovely but I want to "jump" so T62s are calling to me - there's a couple that are known to the forum there and I don't know what the alternative is on a flybridge basis. I want something new-ish, low-hassle, goes like stink and has a garage, hi-lo etc etc. So not fussy really

Oh and SWMBO needs to approve properly and she wants a flybridge but did like the T62 master. Can't afford (or wait for) the GTO so ideas appreciated please. Flybridge requirement was all about sunpad - all available on a T or V.

Thought I'd felt there wasn't love for the T62 from previous comments here but as there were only 22/23 made, would be interested to know or "V" alternatives. I've also seen them at play in the Baldrick bays and they seem to be "well used" and in some of the photos here albeit names blanked.

Final requirement - I need to be able to park it. That one transcends all of the above requirements.

Cheers

Mat

 

[jrudge]

I am in the same position ( and the same marina!).

Predator 53 on one hand vs Manhattan 50 on the other ( there are other options as well but let's keep it simple ).

I have had an s65 which was my first fly bridge and it was great.

For my next boat I am stuck in the middle. Sports boats in general look better and use less fuel. If course on the flip side you have less accommodation for the same mooring cost. It not all about economics ( it a boat for lords sake !!) but they play a part.

More practical things like washing a big flybridge are also a consideration !

At the end of the day how many people are going to be on it for how long. A fly bridge is able to loose far more people than a sports boat. Few on top, few on front, few in cabins, few in saloon and suddenly it takes you a few mins to find the kids.

If you have a family on it for an extended time you will find a fly bridge a better floating house

 

[Portofino]

There isn,t a right or wrong answer to the Open Vs FB in the Med .I stress Med because it's more likely in the "season " which is plenty long enough to boat out in ,that the indoor cover / protection element of the FB side of the debate is weak .We went throught this mental excercises too recently .Infact prob most folks do .
The floating house / appartment side for us is also weak due to fact we allready have property ashore .
Wife not overly keen on stairs either and from a family -young kids + dog although Jrudge suggests they "take a few mins to find " we think the Oppersite want them all in a sight line both underway and @ anchor .
I think it all depends on how you actually are going to use it - there will be a boat thats fit for purpose .
Regarding brand I was a Sunseeker man ( Uk big 3 ) but after 9 y of messing about in the Med - boating from a novice on a steep learning curve ,I knew more of what I did not want ,ie bigger list than what I wanted .So my 0.02 p,s worth of advise would be
1- So draw up the bits /pieces of it that you do not want and use that to eliminate candidates
2- think out side our big 3 - look at Italian stuff esp if you go for an open .I realise it's a big ask for Brit to turn away from our big three I have no regrets , not following the herd
Here's a few Pershing , Riva ,Otam ,Fiart , and of course I,am biased towards Itama ( for you a 62 ?)

We wanted
1- big swim platform where you could sit and dip feet into the sea -this eliminated many as they were too high or too small -did not want hi/low -maintenance issues €€€ going fwds .
2- large cockpit table big enought to open the Sunday Times over a crossiant /coffee so @ least two peeps read it @ breakfast -also no movable telescopic thing that rocks abouts or converts -needs to be solid with no flaps .
3- massive sun pad fixed so 4 peeps can flop out after getting out of the sea
4 - cabins all have ensuites
5 -none vacuum bogs
6- silent Aircon ie not self contained rattling away

The above list eliminated our big 3 in our berth size 15m x 4.87
From an engineering point of view I wanted simple shafts -knocked out IPS ,Arnesons and deep down I was looking for MAN ,MTU or CAT power - having lived with a VP boat and taken a close look at the design /engineering -it fell short of the marketing expectations for me .
While on the subject took a close interest in power /wieght ratio,s -and dead rise ( the deepness of the V ) I know bit nerdy agree .
With that also did not want a cramp,t engine room -so few candidates fell by the wayside when I opened the hatch .
Wife wanted smooth ride -slamming used to frighten her
Agian something else on the "we did not want " list
So knock up a "do not want list "
That will whittle it down to the one

 

[jrudge]

I agree re internal space. The kids have a movie night in the saloon and every now and then we have breakfast inside but it is basically unused and an area to clean.

I have cameras aimed at the patio doors and stairs and the kids are checked from adult to adult under way but at anchor or in port they are free to roam.

 

[MapisM]

Here's a few Pershing , Riva ,Otam ,Fiart , and of course I,am biased towards Itama

Seconded.
I'm actually a bit puzzled by the OP requirements: he says that he wants something that "goes like stink" and he's restricting his choice to FL Targas?!? :ambivalence:
With all due respect for FL, he must never have had an opportunity to try anything like the stuff you are suggesting, I guess...
In this sense, if you don't mind, I would replace Riva and Fiart in your list with Magnum and Baia.
Now, THAT would be a list of stink-like going boats...
Not that there's anything wrong with Fiart and Riva, but on average they are more Targa-like, in terms of performance - i.e. in another league vs. Itama, Otam, etc.
Otoh, if style is also important, Riva is hard to beat, obviously! With Sarnico also worth a look, in this respect.

PS: ref Targas vs. Flybridge, matm, I'm also puzzled by your "too old for a flybridge" comment: you meant too young (or not old enough), I suppose?
And if that is the case, it's not even worth discussing the topic further, evaluating the pros and cons, etc.
If that's your feeling, you already answered your own question - just go for whatever makes you feel better! :encouragement:

 

[Nick_H]

Some thoughts:

There are very few flybridges with a garage, so that will greatly restrict your choice, plus most of them don't go like stink

Re. wind in your hair underway, you get very little with a hardtop sportboat of course, and lots on a flybridge.

If you want the top open on a hardtop, then the sun is beating down on you, plus you get very little crosswind due to the high sides. That just doesn't sound comfortable to me.

I think you need to spend a day with SWMBO on a flybridge. That sounds possible given the plethora of forumites in CD now!

 

[matm]

Thanks Chaps, really valuable input.

To cover a few points - @mapisM - absolutely right, I meant "not old enough". Too busy wondering about getting flamed to actually put my point across! Still in trouble I guess...

The kid angle is easy. Despite lots of trying, we weren't blessed so there's 2 of us that are very good at having fun. Decent circle of friends - bigger now we have a beds in the sun Friends (no kids) join us for the odd weekend and that's not an issue. I do get the "more bang for your buck/mooring fee principle" on a FB though which I hadn't really thought about.

We don't really want to commit to the land-side apartment life (or I don't at least) but SWMBO wants something that feels like a home. I want to bash around in the sea a bit. Pershings are unfortunately out as she knows how fast they go. Goes like stink is unfortunately >30kn but <35kn in my soon to be middle aged world.

Hadn't really thought about other brands too much as I don't know enough about them. UK background around UK boats. I was hoping for an easy steer on making life simple about FB or non-FB.

Any time we go out with friends on a FB, I love them but then as soon as I look at non-FB big "sports boats" then I just like them more. Exception is the Prin SportsBridge which is just lovely but out of my league.

Anyone gone "both ways" so to speak i.e. FB to non-FB and then back again?

 

[matm]

Some thoughts:


Re. wind in your hair underway, you get very little with a hardtop sportboat of course, and lots on a flybridge.

If you want the top open on a hardtop, then the sun is beating down on you, plus you get very little crosswind due to the high sides. That just doesn't sound comfortable to me.

I think you need to spend a day with SWMBO on a flybridge. That sounds possible given the plethora of forumites in CD now!

Thanks Nick - I'm "lobster boy" so we have the bimini up the whole time on the T44 anyway. I fry after 20 mins. SWMBO just soaks it up. I am the sole reason for putting aircon on the boat currently. When we looked round the '62 on the hard it was obviously very hot as no power/airco. Assuming we can't run like that i.e. genny on when cruising (?) then I'd melt. Can't have the slidey top open + no airco = melt.

hmm

 

[CLOUD9]

If that's your feeling, you already answered your own question - just go for whatever makes you feel better!

Mat, I think MapisM makes a very good point. If your priority is something really fast with a garage and you see flybridges as boats for a different generation, then you are never going to feel happy in a Flybridge, at least not now!
But for the sake of the debate, and having had family boats of all shapes and sizes over many years... a summary of key positives for me go like this; (Comments assume Med location so the flybridge is actually usable most of the time!)

Flybridge = Accommodation with space to spread out a bit. The second 'level' gives somewhere else to go, which might sound odd but can be important if you spend a fair amount of time on board and don't want to get claustrophobic. It would be interesting to see an accurate comparison of square-footage and what length of sports boat would be needed to match a 40/50/60ft Flybridge accommodation.
Big thing for me is wind in the hair and feeling 'outdoors' on the flybridge. I only use lower helm when blown off the top and getting soaking wet. When aboard sportsboats Im really not a fan of sitting indoors with the sun beating down through a sunroof. I also much prefer the elevated 360 degree view afforded from the flybridge when docking etc.
Until we decide to buy bricks and mortar ashore, we would only consider a flybridge simply for the extended accommodation within a reasonably manageable length.

Sportsboats = Better looking generally. Sexier (if thats important!)
Faster, more exhilarating.
Fewer steps to get up and down. Good for keeping an eye on children and a good platform for entertaining on one level.
Less expensive ft for ft (I know there are some exceptions!)
If I had our main accommodation ashore I would consider a sportsboat as a day-trip/entertaining platform.

I have warmed very much to the Sportsbridge designs. Particularly the Princess S65, which I think strikes a reasonable balance between the positives of FB v Sportsboat without too much compromise.
Good luck with the search
Rick

 

[admillington]

Thanks Chaps, really valuable input.

To cover a few points - @mapisM - absolutely right, I meant "not old enough". Too busy wondering about getting flamed to actually put my point across! Still in trouble I guess...

The kid angle is easy. Despite lots of trying, we weren't blessed so there's 2 of us that are very good at having fun. Decent circle of friends - bigger now we have a beds in the sun Friends (no kids) join us for the odd weekend and that's not an issue. I do get the "more bang for your buck/mooring fee principle" on a FB though which I hadn't really thought about.

We don't really want to commit to the land-side apartment life (or I don't at least) but SWMBO wants something that feels like a home. I want to bash around in the sea a bit. Pershings are unfortunately out as she knows how fast they go. Goes like stink is unfortunately >30kn but <35kn in my soon to be middle aged world.

Hadn't really thought about other brands too much as I don't know enough about them. UK background around UK boats. I was hoping for an easy steer on making life simple about FB or non-FB.

Any time we go out with friends on a FB, I love them but then as soon as I look at non-FB big "sports boats" then I just like them more. Exception is the Prin SportsBridge which is just lovely but out of my league.

Anyone gone "both ways" so to speak i.e. FB to non-FB and then back again?

I see that boats.co.uk have their own stock T62 in CD - http://www.boats.co.uk/boats-for-sale/fairline-targa-62gt-1310

How easy would that be - part-ex and then moor the two boats together and move the mass of stuff that accumulates between the two.

I have done this many times with them and it does make life easy. As it is their stock boat I would push them for a day out to experience the boat in real life use - BTW I think the T62 is a great looking boat.

-Andrew

 

[matm]

I see that boats.co.uk have their own stock T62 in CD - http://www.boats.co.uk/boats-for-sale/fairline-targa-62gt-1310

How easy would that be - part-ex and then moor the two boats together and move the mass of stuff that accumulates between the two.

I have done this many times with them and it does make life easy. As it is their stock boat I would push them for a day out to experience the boat in real life use - BTW I think the T62 is a great looking boat.

-Andrew

Not surprisingly, that's the one I've been looking at

 

[matm]

Mat, I think MapisM makes a very good point. If your priority is something really fast with a garage and you see flybridges as boats for a different generation, then you are never going to feel happy in a Flybridge, at least not now!
But for the sake of the debate, and having had family boats of all shapes and sizes over many years... a summary of key positives for me go like this; (Comments assume Med location so the flybridge is actually usable most of the time!)

Flybridge = Accommodation with space to spread out a bit. The second 'level' gives somewhere else to go, which might sound odd but can be important if you spend a fair amount of time on board and don't want to get claustrophobic. It would be interesting to see an accurate comparison of square-footage and what length of sports boat would be needed to match a 40/50/60ft Flybridge accommodation.
Big thing for me is wind in the hair and feeling 'outdoors' on the flybridge. I only use lower helm when blown off the top and getting soaking wet. When aboard sportsboats Im really not a fan of sitting indoors with the sun beating down through a sunroof. I also much prefer the elevated 360 degree view afforded from the flybridge when docking etc.
Until we decide to buy bricks and mortar ashore, we would only consider a flybridge simply for the extended accommodation within a reasonably manageable length.

Sportsboats = Better looking generally. Sexier (if thats important!)
Faster, more exhilarating.
Fewer steps to get up and down. Good for keeping an eye on children and a good platform for entertaining on one level.
Less expensive ft for ft (I know there are some exceptions!)
If I had our main accommodation ashore I would consider a sportsboat as a day-trip/entertaining platform.

I have warmed very much to the Sportsbridge designs. Particularly the Princess S65, which I think strikes a reasonable balance between the positives of FB v Sportsboat without too much compromise.
Good luck with the search
Rick

Thanks RIck. There's some good points here and above re a FB. I think I was looking for affirmation that non-FB was the way to go due to circumstances that I've explained. Now not too sure.

That's beauty of crowd-sourcing!

Back to the thinking board. Thanks all!

 

[Nick_H]

Assuming we can't run like that i.e. genny on when cruising (?) then I'd melt. Can't have the slidey top open + no airco = melt.

You can run the genny and aircon underway, no problem, but obviously there is no wind in the hair feeling with the roof closed.

 

[matm]

Thanks. Like driving a non convertible car in the sunshine then.

Maybe I should just get some factor 150, a hat and a flybridge!

Lots to consider!

 

[Sticky Fingers]

What a great problem to have...

 

[Portofino]

If its basically sun shade ( sounding like it ) ? Then as you say just cam up and get a hat .
I think inside a hard top with roof shut and Geny on in the middle of summer ,is gonna need pretty good AC -unless you put screen covers on ? Also not so peacefully to relax @ anchor @ midday in August
But then think of navigating -hmm -taking covers on /off on the glass - you could end up in a floating green house .
Then you said " goes like stink "
You will be hard pushed to find a 17-18m FB that can stay on 30 knots all day - 1000hp min @ 600 L/h or more ? Maybe 800 l/h near WOT -
Are you sure that D13 -powered -- T 62 has enough grunt ?
Consider this not wanting to labour the point but my 14m has the same size engines and wieght wise is 10 + lighter .
Would have thought 1360 -1400 ,s in a 62 sport -you gotta wonder why the Iatalian 62's are all around this figure ?
An Itama 62 WOT is 40 knots , cruise 37 , so real gentle Eco @ 30 with plenty to spare -has MAN 1360's
But it's not exclusive a Baia 63 HT has similar power /performance
And the Itama is - open cool breeze etc with a big Binimi which you can adjust for/aft .plenty of shade in the cockpit to hide
If you blat arround then time spent exposed with hat on helming will be less .
Only you + wife know how you will use the boat
A62 is effectively 2x size space wise -but here a mere 42

Cool shade nice breeze Geny off

Shade on the helm a30 knot breeze coming soon

 

[Steruth1]

Thanks. Like driving a non convertible car in the sunshine then.

Maybe I should just get some factor 150, a hat and a flybridge!

Lots to consider!

Hi Matt

Good to meet you last week, but what's this old man fly bridge thing &#55357;&#56876;

I've had both sports and Fb and for me it's a easy decision the extra space and views you get are worth the few draw backs that some have mentioned, on the sunburn side under a good Bimini you are pretty sheltered at the helm but still plenty of space for the sun worshippers.
I find stern to mooring a breeze too when on the Fb as you have such a good view of everything around you.
You are both More than welcome to have a look on mine when your down next but you may want to wear a disguise in case anyone thinks your old &#55357;&#56834;

 

[matm]

lol. finally someone bites!

Appreciate this is a 1st world problem. ahem.

Interesting comment re grunt. Not sea-trialled so just going on figures etc then taking a bit off as usually full of beer and water.

 

[benjenbav]

Not surprisingly, that's the one I've been looking at

It's a blimmin' good job for many of us that boats.co.uk don't have the airline ticketing algorithm so that every time you look back at what you're thinking of buying the price goes up.

 

[MapisM]

the airline ticketing algorithm

By chance, do you know how it works exactly? I'd be curious to understand that better.
With apologies for the o/t.