Estimated position

Well, it shouldn't happen but it does...everything should have backup power supplies, etc but Sod's Law takes effect...

Also, he was plotting HIS best estimate of the position, based on ALL the position fixing data available to him, which is just what he should be doing, rather than relying on a single means of fixing his position.

Our ships do the same - and carry a North Sea Pilot!
 
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When I last looked at the new boats offered at LIBS, which admittedly was some years ago, I noticed that they all had a place to fit a plotter but almost all lacked a chart table able to take a half Admiralty chart.



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My friend has no room at all for a chart table, so has a chart on a roller blind on the wall.
 
For goodness sake Robin don't be such a wus !! There was no intention yo be insulting to you it was a general statement embracing all boaters . Read it again and stop being so pompous ---- get a grip !!!
 
I have been told, by a friend at the UKHO, that RN submarines do not have chart tables, but have a great big flat screen on a bulkhead, in order to save space. He says that submarine requirements were one of the driving forces behind the development of electronic chart systems.
 
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Also, he was plotting HIS best estimate of the position, based on ALL the position fixing data available to him, which is just what he should be doing, rather than relying on a single means of fixing his position

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again words that can't really be disputed - so I agree!

generally, in open water, you are however likely to start with a GPS position, probably on a suitable plotter, and from there you would test this against other known info eg if you had left Southend 1 hour ago and believed you were travelling at 8 knots in on an Easterly heading you might question a chartplotter showing you to be approaching Ostende..........but accept one that showed you 9 miles ENE of your start position!

All points between these extremes are of course where experience, judgement, conditioning etc all come into play (loosely seamanship I guess)
 
There are a lot of interesting posts here. The reason I raised the subject is the report on 'Pastimes' saying that the boat had no idea of position because the electrics had gone down and wondered if people have become over reliant on electronics.

Personally I consider it potentialy dangerous to not be able to work out at least a DR position at a moments notice should you need to do so. For that you need a starting point, either on the chart, in the log or wherever.

I don't want or have a chartplotter partly because;

1. They are, so far as I'm concerned, a 'nice to have' and I can't justify the price on that basis

2. I'm not a gadget person and have no particular wish to learn how to use one.

3. I don't trust electronics not to go wrong and couldn't fix it if it did.

4. I like sailing on an empty sea, if possible, relying on my abilities and don't want to be following a scrolled chart readout. I get more of a buzz and more confidence building to check that my calculations were correct every now and again than constantly being able to see a readout.

5. I could begin to rely on the readout and start to reduce my safety margins.

6. I see sailing as an art, not a science and feel happy that way!

Having said all that I am not a total Luddite. My wife bought me a handheld GPS this year and it is so cheap and easy it would be daft not to use it to check against the rhum line and other observations. I've no particular wish to start doing ladders and webs etc.

I guess it's like computers; It's easy to start taking them for granted and start doing things not because you want to or need to but because the computer can do it. Tail wags dog!
 
I absolutely agree Duncan . Navigation is an art and I am proud to have the ability to navigate relying on my own brain power and not of that of a lead acid battery .
 
Ref, DuncanH2B (latest post) and Clyst: I'm in total agreement with the purpose of your thread, and the best it brought out. For me, and many more, sailing is about enjoying an incredibly varied natural environment, and gaining satisfaction from learning and using the multiplicity of skills needed to do so effectivelyand safely. I've followed this thread with a mix of interest, disbelief and something akin to pity for those who seem to regard navigation as an unfortunate necessity, best met by throwing the latest technological gismos at it; with more gismos as back-up of course! Perhaps they are the ones who should see a psychiatrist?
 
Its the same actually sailing . The number of times I'v left a ports and to see (sorry to say most are AWBs) yachts motoring to windward instead of tacking . Is because of lack of ability , lack of understanding ,poor seamanship or are these boats incapable of any windward performance ?? what is it ???
 
I am afraid I may be one of those that may motor to windward.

I asked my boss why he had a MoBo instead of a sailing boat when he admitted he loved sailing. He replied that he enjoyed sailing but could not afford the time.

I love sailing and time permitting will race a dinghy where we have to sail everywhere but when cruising I do want to achieve certain destinations so tend to be one that hoists the iron sail when the speed drops below 4 -5 kts (especially if it means we will miss the tide window when entering the needles!) and likewise motor sail on a close tack if the wind is preventing me from making reasonable progress in the direction I want to go.

I would not want to change to a MoBo though just like the ability to be able to motor reasonably fast when required.

I trust I am still a sailor just not a purist!!
 
I think that I may be speaking for more than just me when I say that the problem I have with your answer is that it, maybe uniintentionally, tries to gain some moral high ground because you choose to use traditional methods of navving. That's your choice but don't assume we all sail for the same reasons you do.

Vive la difference, live-and-let-live, etc, etc
 
Whilst I and others can comment with experience of both traditional basic navigation (which I agree it is essential to learn and be practiced at) as well as modern electronics there are some here I feel who are commenting without the equivalent experience of the modern aids. There is nothing of course wrong with chosing to ignore new methods but it is perhaps unfair to assume that it makes those who do use them to be any less competent navigators, just because they cannot or chose not to go electronic themselves. I don't have a gas turbine engine so don't feel competent to compare one to my current diesel or even the untrusty Stuart Turner I once had in the dark ages either. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
I quite agree Robin. There seem to be many who assume that using electronic methods dumbs the whole nav thing down (one likened it to navigating with a lead acid battery /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif).

These people do not seem to realise that electronic nav opens up a whole new range of additional opportunities and becasue of that the approach to it is different to the old paper and pencils approach (especially if one is using an ECS rather than a simple small screened plotter). It takes an open mind to explore these opportunities.

Just one simple example of an advantage is we sail in an area with quite unpredictable tides, both in respect to their time (can be hours late or early) and also location and strength. On a passage the influence of the tide on the boat can be monitored moment by moment if wished and the nav tactics changed to suit, issues impossible to pick up with such timeliness with paper and pencil. I believe that for an 8 hour passage through these waters I regularly save 1/2 an hour through better nav tactics and get satisfaction from that better navigation.

Also, these people seem to assume that one becomes penciless going electronic - whereas with our ECS (and others) we can do everything that one can do on a chart - manual fixes using bearings, clearance bearings/lines, all divider activities, draw any lines we want, highlight dangers, write notes if wanted, etc, etc plus can do them very much more quickly than by hand (usually only a mouse click or two). Distance off dangers is always instantly available (hover the cursor over the danger and distance and bearing is given)... oh I'm tired as the list is endless.

Personally I think those who think the high moral ground is with paper and pencil either have closed minds or else do not have the navigation skills and knowledge to enable them to conceptualise the benefits that electronic methods can add (and I say add, cos as I have said, one can still do everything on the screen as well that one can do on a paper chart but with the benefit of doing more).

John
 
Interesting reactions to my previous post!
First, be assured that I take no issue with any boat-owner's choice of his craft and equipment or his use of it, as long as it does not unfairly or inconsiderately impinge on the safety and entitlements of others: I certainly do not seek high ground, moral or otherwise.
I have noted the variety of boats owned by some contributors and recognise the breadth of experience indicated. I listed only the one I currently own, but I have some breadth too, having skippered more than thirty others over the whole range from 22ft to 72ft; with electronic navaids and with none. I do use those, efficiently I hope, when short-handed or if the main purpose of the passage is an expeditious delivery, or weather so horrid that prudence dictates. Engines too! I am not a purist or Luddite!
The point I have tried to make, (and apparently I failed!) is that most people find that exercise of skills, even those born of necessity for safety, can be a source of pleasure and satisfaction, and regarding them as a chore is self-denial! I will even admit that I too find satisfaction from getting the best from of a GPS-routed passage as well as a 'trad-nav' passage!
Can I come back inside now?
 
No offence intended and just a couple of points to round off.

Firstly, I've found navigation a bit like arithmetic prone to Chris_E-inputted errors and like, long multiplication, am only to glad to let a machine do the work for me.

Secondly, the machines are inherently better at some things than me and I'd rather let them do the chores (no I'm not in self-denial, just making my own choices about what I want to do) whilst I get on with making mixing my Mount Gay and Coke (from which I derive extreme satisfaction)
 
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Personally I think those who think the high moral ground is with paper and pencil either have closed minds or else do not have the navigation skills and knowledge to enable them to conceptualise the benefits that electronic methods can add (and I say add, cos as I have said, one can still do everything on the screen as well that one can do on a paper chart but with the benefit of doing more).


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John

I think that is partly true but there are other factors involved as well. For example the costs of electronics when compared to the value of the boat, the size of the boat and maybe it's available electrical power as well as the distances and areas cruised all play a part.

I bought my first Decca set for £750 to fit on a boat then that I had paid £10,000 for so the Decca cost 7.5% of the value of the boat, however in the strong tides around the English Channel, Channel Islands and Brittany where I sailed and still do, not to mention the frequent fogs, made this a good buy in my opinion. That Decca set was a quantum leap forward in stress free family cruising but it also taught the art of defensive navigation in that it could 'jump a lane' and give a wrong position, it was severely affected by electrical storms (I once recorded SOG at 100kts - backwards) and in some areas it was as much as a mile or more out. The advent of GPS, then dGPS and a Yeoman to put the positions instantly and less prone to pilot error on the chart, then electronic chart plotting with continuous position updating are the real icing on the cake with additional bits like waypoint lollipops on the radar the cherry on top.

So I can see where some contributors are coming from. If your cruising is limited to only occasional trips outside of local areas or the boat is small/inexpensive then electronics beyond a simple GPS become harder to justify perhaps.

Where my understanding is stretched is when these factors are used to justify the attacks on modern aids. The 'total failure' argument of all electrics going down is easy to understand on a small boat with just one GPS and one battery that also starts the engine but is light years away from how we are set up on a bigger boat with 2 separate battery banks independent of a 3rd that starts the engine and additional GPS sets. The concept of Uncle Sam pulling the GPS plug without warning with thousands of planes in the air doesn't seem at all likely except maybe if a nuclear attack started, in which case we would have more to worry about than sharpening pencils!

Like you we get a lot of added value from electronic plotting. We have just returned from over 800 miles cruising and anchoring where the rocks are very sharp. Many of our chosen anchorages were listed in pilots as being unsafe to leave at night in the event of bad weather, windshifts etc, but that is no longer true using a cockpit plotter even by simply following the recorded track back out. We have 'tested' wpts and routes established over many years that we can follow with confidence even in thick fog and strong tides, not so easy to do with intermittent pencilled plots and very likely a larger scale paper chart than the detailed one we have on screen.

Each to their own of course but don't knock technology if you haven't tried it!

Robin
 
Loss of electrics can be easily achieved, at least for me. My crew chucked a pot against the front of the wheelhouse, and everything went off. We had to phone the CG because we had a prototype RNLI CPRS aboard which would raise the alarm due to the power failure. Embarrassingly I could not give an accurate position, only bearing/distance from, as we still work in Decca LOP's derived from GPS, (don't ask!) and my paper record of gear positions shows these.

The consumer unit is inside the wheelhouse front, and it had spat out the negative buzz bar.
It is recommended that you have one radio connected direct to a battery for such an instance, and it might be wise to have a GPS for the DSC also.

BTW the first Decca Yacht Nav cost £1950 in about 1980, and we jumped for joy!
 
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BTW the first Decca Yacht Nav cost £1950 in about 1980, and we jumped for joy!

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We waited for the Philips DYN11, the DYN1 was rather larger! Interestingly the RNLI were not able to buy them as the system was on annual licences to commercial users, yotties and presumably fisherman paid a one-off licence fee included in the set cost.

Bearing and distance from positions are what pencil and paper navigators are about, the way the CG preferred I think too as it is quicker and less prone to pilot error on plotting. It was only Decca with Lat/Long readouts that resulted in Lat/Long positions becoming common and often getting a response from the CG of 'yes but where is that roughly...' I was once asked by Ushant Traffic Control to give our bearing and distance from Creac'h Light rather than in Lat Long when we were asking them on VHF about visibilty (or lack of it) in Chenal Du Four, fortunately we could do this instantly both with the Yeoman puck on the paper chart and the electronic cursor on the plotter. Equally interestingly they could see us on their radar at over 12 miles!

I still carry a Seine Bay chart with Decca Lanes on it...
 
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Personally speaking, I can't imagine why anyone would want to log their position on a note or paper chart every hour (whether using electronic or paper charts for main navigation) if more than 12 hours sailing from land unless they just did it for pleasure.

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I don't understand this comment, I mark my position on a paper chart every couple of hours when out of sight of land so that I know where I am. Am I missing something here?
 
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