estimate vs final bill - what is reasonable?

Express your disatiafaction and hope for a price reduction.
But resolve the matter quickly and move on . Life is too short
Do not use the same yard again .
 
If they quote £ X for a job then provided you do not introduce some variation to the work then £X is the price you pay.
If, within the quote, they say that, for instance, there is some investigative work needed & that the price of that is only a guide then they have justifiable grounds for altering the price. In that instance it would be prudent to determine an agreed limit. If they did not quote anything to the contrary then they have no grounds for increase in cost. After all it could have been that the job was easier than expected & you would probably not have been given the refund.
I would also suggest that as" specialists" they should be using their expertise to determine the probable cost of the investigative work, & they should be seen to giving a sensible estimation of the outcome. A cost increase of a few pounds against a low estimate for variable works would be seen to be reasonable, but a cost increase of thousands against an estimation of a few pounds would be seen to be unreasonable & unacceptable.
If you ask for variation to the works once started then it would seem wise to ask for a cost first
Always have the quotation in writing, or if not, then give them an order in writing stating your terms , not theirs.
 
To clear up some obvious misapprehensions,

Not a quote but an estimate anything in writing? so you don't have to rely on "memory". I actually log everything, which has proved useful in bringing people to heel on 3 occasions.
No peep about any escalation.
Obvious errors in book-keeping.

Sounds as though you have a very strong case for negotiating a reduction.

Whether the estimate or final price are reasonable we can't venture to estimate as we have no idea of the actual job, upon which to guess. So the original question is unreasonable - but the OP appears to have a chance of fighting it - BUT "no cash, no splash" means the boatyard has the final sanction.
I'd certainly list the anomalies and see the yard owner - leave it to him to launch you for free and save face.
 
skyflyer said:
Yes that is exactly my point - no updates, no calls, no emails, just a bill that is closer to £3K than the original £1250 estimated.

bitbaltic, I disagree - if estimating small jobs then you estimate accordingly and say £500-£1000.

ripvan - a quote would not have been possible due to nature of work.

Basically I think its an admin problem; poor record keeping, etc, rather than deliberate overcharging and thats why i didn't really want to go into the fine detail here. Some of the hours billed to certain jobs are almost impossible and some of the work billed has not actually been done!

What I was asking - and trying to confine the thread to - was what people think is a reasonable amount to exceed an estimate before needing to get in touch with the customer to clear it. I want to have an understanding of what "normal" boaters think is "normal" rather than what I think is normal, before I get into a discussion with the yard over it.
Click to expand...

With my marine business when I had it I would always call a client if I thought it was going to cost 10% more than quoted. If I had screwed up my quotation so much that it went more without a good reason then I would just absorb it myself and learn from the experience. It only happened once. I know for sure the agents that I worked for absolutely would not pay any more than 10% above a quotation without prior approval.
The problem with some yards is that they adopt the "No Cash No splash" policy and so they may have you somewhat up against the wall.
 
Whenever I have taken a car to a garage for a repair I have been given a quote for the work. As a rough guess about half the time that is the price I pay, the other half they phone me first to say "X also needs doing, it will cost £Y, shall we go ahead". Garages repair cars commercially, boat yards repair boats commercially, why should it be any different. It sounds like poor record keeping and admin, not that it is any excuse.

Years ago I used to take my car to a particular garage for MOTs, he would always say he'd spend up to £50 to get it to pass, beyond that he would call first. I always thought this was a good way to do it.
 
Were it me, first of all I would ask for clarification on the amount. Ask for an itemised list of all work carried-out and timesheets.

If you receive these and they all look right, then you pay the bill.

If however, they look wrong, or the refuse/are unable to give you these, then you have grounds for disputing the bill. If there are items that you don't think have been done, or you think the time taken is not reasonable, then you can argure your case on them. If they are not willing/able to provide this breakdown and timesheets, then you have to assume that they've simply made it all up and thought of a number, in which case all is up for negotiation based on your original estimate.

If you go down this route, I would arrange an appointment to see the boss personally, and sit down with your cheque book open and negotiate an agreeable figure with him and write him a cheque.
 
skyflyer said:
The yard's final bill is just over double their estimate; to be fair, on one of the jobs there was some investigatory work needed doing so there was no way to estimate the remedial work until that was done. However, once the investigatory work was completed there was no suggestion that the rectification would be difficult or complex.
Click to expand...

I think you may be somewhat conflating two key issues here:

  1. Are you saying that work is being overcharged (hours logged when nobody on boat, etc)?
  2. Or are you saying that the yard have simply overrun £xyz, to the extent of being far and unacceptably over what it indicated at the outset, but that at the end of the day this is basically an admin mess-up??
I can tell you that opportunistic overcharging is so prevalent in industries from construction to auditing, to law firms (!!) that few engage services on a so called "day rate" basis anymore. Robert Wilson loosely refers to this as a non legalistic version of Caveat Emptor and in the pre-contract sense I would agree with him; i.e. vague verbal contracts should only be entered into with those you implicitly trust and where you can pay unexpected overruns. Yes verbal contracts are enforceable, but jeez are they a pantomime to unravel!

In this vein, if you believe you have been overcharged (and it seems very much like you're kinda saying that) then immediately inform the yard as such. They will most likely be mortified and resolve ASAP, or explain something to you which changes your mind. You must however be prepared for a legal ding dong if your worst fears are realised.

If, however, it was just that the job overran a bit - "look the rudder bearing bust as we pulled the rudder out, we called your office but you were uncontactable and JP3 now charge £xyzk for a bloomin replacement, but the Fastnet is next w/e, so hope you don't mind that................" Then that's just bad luck, but your bill.

In between there's an entire spectrum and more granularity would really be required to give any harder advice.
 
Following up: The yard have agreed to a substantial reduction; (more than I thought they would, to be honest!). They admit (to all intents and purposes) that it is an admin and book-keeping issue.

They did work for me last winter and I was happy with quality and price. The work they have done this year is good quality albeit not always quite what i asked for. They concede that their comms have been bad and seem to be taking positive feedback from it. I will be happy to use them again - after this I think they will extra vigilant on the admin - they know I will!
 
skyflyer said:
Following up: The yard have agreed to a substantial reduction; (more than I thought they would, to be honest!). They admit (to all intents and purposes) that it is an admin and book-keeping issue.

They did work for me last winter and I was happy with quality and price. The work they have done this year is good quality albeit not always quite what i asked for. They concede that their comms have been bad and seem to be taking positive feedback from it. I will be happy to use them again - after this I think they will extra vigilant on the admin - they know I will!
Click to expand...
It seems a common error with boatyards & normally to their benefit
 
Robert Wilson said:
Easy for me to say, but "Caveat Emptor".
I think most of the populace will have been stung at some point, by some trade, profession or other.

I suppose it's a lesson to us all, and possibly easily managed by clearly stating (possibly in writing) from the outset that increases over the estimate, say between 10% - 15%, should be advised, quantified and justified immediately and before further work.

Just thinking.
Click to expand...

I agree
 
skyflyer said:
Following up: The yard have agreed to a substantial reduction; (more than I thought they would, to be honest!). They admit (to all intents and purposes) that it is an admin and book-keeping issue.

They did work for me last winter and I was happy with quality and price. The work they have done this year is good quality albeit not always quite what i asked for. They concede that their comms have been bad and seem to be taking positive feedback from it. I will be happy to use them again - after this I think they will extra vigilant on the admin - they know I will!
Click to expand...

Good result then?
 
To add to Skyflier's experience; I had a new engine installed by a Volvo agent and when I got the bill, I am afraid that I cannot remember the exact details, but it was considerably in excess of the estimate. I took Advice from the "Which Legal Helpline" and they basically said that whilst an estimate was not carved in stone, it should be reasonably close to the final bill. Reasonable was not defined and they suggested that I offer what I thought was fair with the reasoning they had given and waited for a response.

I offered an additional 20% over the quote and they came back saying they would accept 25% which I also accepted.
 
Even if the contractor hasn't given you a quotation, he still can't charge you whatever he likes. You are entitled to be charged a reasonable amount. If the two parties can't agree this, it has to be decided in court.
 
What annoys me is that 90% of the time companies quote excluding VAT prices. I recently had some work done and was quoted a price of £350. That was an estimate. The final bill was £450 plus VAT (VAT was not mentioned at the time) so it cost me £540 or a 60% increase in what I was expecting to pay.

For total transparency where more than 50% of trade is with the general public businesses should quote the gross price. I know it's my responsibility to check and I'm not blaming anyone but you don't go into high street shops or restaurants and see excluding VAT prices.

The prices quoted should as a matter of principle be the total gross amount in my opinion.
 
Last edited:
paella said:
What annoys me is that 90% of the time companies quote excluding VAT prices. I recently had some work done and was quoted a price of £350. That was an estimate. The final bill was £450 plus VAT (VAT was not mentioned at the time) so it cost me £540 or a 60% increase in what I was expecting to pay.

For total transparency where more than 50% of trade is with the general public businesses should quote the gross price. I know it's my responsibility to check and I'm not blaming anyone but you don't go into high street shops or restaurants and see excluding VAT prices.

The prices quoted should as a matter of principle be the total gross amount in my opinion.
Click to expand...

A degree of clear thinking is needed on all sides.
Let's start with terminology. A quote is a contractual offer to do specified work for a specified price. An estimate is an offer to do specified work, with the price to be finalised after the work is completed. Just keep these two key words very separate. ("...was quoted a price of £350. That was an estimate. " Confused?)
VAT is a simple matter. The person(s) putting together a quotation or an estimate in our field of activity are almost certainly working from a cost plus basis. Input costs of materials, parts or sub-contract work will almost certainly be worked on a business-to-business basis, ie EX VAT. Labour costs of own employees are obviously ex VAT as well. So the quotation / estimate is built up ex VAT, and certainly should show a total as an ex VAT figure. If the customer is another business, as often happens, then this is the figure that is relevant for them. For individual customers it would be polite to also show the INC VAT figure, and this will of course be required by law on the eventual invoice.

If all quotations had to show the "total gross amount" it would be psychologically negative to business customers who would be seeing a figure 20% larger than the true cost to them.
 
Just as a small thread drift, I wonder if forumites appreciate just how much effort can be required to put together an accurate quotation / estimate for some of the jobs done on boats? In an industry where there are few standard products, almost every job will include working in a different location, with the attendant difficulties in estimating access time, lengths of cable runs, un-fixing previous bodges, locating replacement parts from small volume manufacturers etc etc. And if the engineer doing the job then finds he needs a "special" tool, the odds are that it is back in his van which is 15 minutes walk from the boat. Or worse, back at base an hour's drive away.
So be understanding when your engineer declines to make a quotation, or is slow in coming back to you with an estimate, or makes an estimate which subsequently proves inaccurate. (In which case he should be communicating with the customer as the job goes on and the variance mounts up.)
 
I had an example when a cleat was pulled off the stern of my boat whilst on the mooring. I got an estimate from the yard to replace it. When the job was done, it necessitated forming an access from the lazerette, performing keyhole surgery to replace the cleat and fixings, then tidying up the new access. It was a lot more work than anticipated by the contractor and my bill was augmented as a result. I paid in full as it was reasonable for the amount of work carried out. Perhaps the yard was slightly at fault for not considering how they would get to the rear of the fitting but i didnt pay any more than i would have done if their estimate had been more accurate so was not disadvantaged. Admittedly it was a small job and the bill was hundreds rather than thousands.
 
I sympathise with you on this one. I was right royally ripped off by the marine engineering Co' attached to my Marina here, during my extensive re-furbishment a few years ago.
I couldn't do much about it as I was on an overseas assignment but at one stage, when I realised how much they were charging & how slowly they were dragging their feet I strongly considered walking into their office with a baseball bat in my hand & slamming it down on their counter, I was so furious with them. They had me over a barrel as they'd de-rigged the boat & taken it into their large workshop. I paid up, as this is my 'home berth', but it ruined my relationship with the Co' for all time.
Furthermore, they seem to be ripping-off boat owners on a regular basis here & stories abound, e.g..£100 quotes turning into £700 invoices & much much worse. They've been taken to court several times over the last few years, & lost their case every time, but this does'nt deter them in the slightest.
They're ALL sharks to me, until they prove otherwise.!
 
paella said:
What annoys me is that 90% of the time companies quote excluding VAT prices. I recently had some work done and was quoted a price of £350. That was an estimate. The final bill was £450 plus VAT (VAT was not mentioned at the time) so it cost me £540 or a 60% increase in what I was expecting to pay.

For total transparency where more than 50% of trade is with the general public businesses should quote the gross price. I know it's my responsibility to check and I'm not blaming anyone but you don't go into high street shops or restaurants and see excluding VAT prices.

The prices quoted should as a matter of principle be the total gross amount in my opinion.
Click to expand...

I seem to recall that when VAT was first introduced it was made law that for private customers the quote had to include VAT. Thus if nothing was stated then the customer can legally state that VAT was included
Different for commercial customers
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top