estimate vs final bill - what is reasonable?

[skyflyer]

The yard's final bill is just over double their estimate; to be fair, on one of the jobs there was some investigatory work needed doing so there was no way to estimate the remedial work until that was done. However, once the investigatory work was completed there was no suggestion that the rectification would be difficult or complex.

Theres a whole host of issues about how long was spent on each job, but before I get into an argument with them about that, I would be grateful for opinions of fellow forumites as to when a customer might reasonably expect a contractor to contact them if it becomes apparent that the estimate is going to be exceeded.

In my own view, if the bill is looking like being 10-15% above the estimate I'd expect to just accept that. Any more and I'd want a yard to contact me to discuss the problem and options for resolving it. Pretty much like when you take a car in to have something fixed.

The issue here is that had I had any idea that two of the jobs were going to be twice what i thought, I would simply have done them myself.

 

[Topcat47]

You got away lightly, my last refit in a yard managed to stretch a £4.5 k "estimate" to nearly £20k. They hadn't estimated for "work in way" both removal and replacement and topped it off by an extortionate claim for "Storage" while they weren't working on the Bloody thing.

 

[ripvan1]

I always ask and always give quotes. Estimates can too easily lead to war. Any extras need to be discussed prior to starting.

 

[bitbaltic]

Are we talking double 500 quid, double five grand, or double 25 grand?? Labour being the major cost in most and especially smaller jobs, the smaller the amount the less easy it is to estimate a likely over-run, and the more likely the yard will be to assume there is no issue in proceeding.

I would not be particularly alarmed if £500 turned into a £1k invoice, it shouldn't happen but it does happen all the time in the marine business. I would be miffed if 5k became 10k without a call.

 

[prv]

You got away lightly, my last refit in a yard managed to stretch a £4.5 k "estimate" to nearly £20k. They hadn't estimated for "work in way" both removal and replacement and topped it off by an extortionate claim for "Storage" while they weren't working on the Bloody thing.

Did they keep you apprised of the mounting costs during the process, or just crack on and then present you with a quadruple bill at the end?

I do all that kind of work myself so have no experience of dealing with "the yard", but I can't imagine any circumstances under which I'd be paying such a demand. If they've screwed up their estimate so badly (what sort of yard doesn't realise that boats usually need A moved before you can work on B?) the absolute least they could do is waive the storage which hasn't actually cost them anything out of pocket.

Pete

 

[skyflyer]

Did they keep you apprised of the mounting costs during the process, or just crack on and then present you with a quadruple bill at the end?

I do all that kind of work myself so have no experience of dealing with "the yard", but I can't imagine any circumstances under which I'd be paying such a demand. If they've screwed up their estimate so badly (what sort of yard doesn't realise that boats usually need A moved before you can work on B?) the absolute least they could do is waive the storage which hasn't actually cost them anything out of pocket.

Pete

Yes that is exactly my point - no updates, no calls, no emails, just a bill that is closer to £3K than the original £1250 estimated.

bitbaltic, I disagree - if estimating small jobs then you estimate accordingly and say £500-£1000.

ripvan - a quote would not have been possible due to nature of work.

Basically I think its an admin problem; poor record keeping, etc, rather than deliberate overcharging and thats why i didn't really want to go into the fine detail here. Some of the hours billed to certain jobs are almost impossible and some of the work billed has not actually been done!

What I was asking - and trying to confine the thread to - was what people think is a reasonable amount to exceed an estimate before needing to get in touch with the customer to clear it. I want to have an understanding of what "normal" boaters think is "normal" rather than what I think is normal, before I get into a discussion with the yard over it.

 

[peteK]

Might be a case of the yard giving low estimate just to get the work,but I agree it should be no more than 10-20% of estimate.If they give the true price they wouldn't get the work.

 

[Robert Wilson]

Easy for me to say, but "Caveat Emptor".
I think most of the populace will have been stung at some point, by some trade, profession or other.

I suppose it's a lesson to us all, and possibly easily managed by clearly stating (possibly in writing) from the outset that increases over the estimate, say between 10% - 15%, should be advised, quantified and justified immediately and before further work.

Just thinking.

 

[skyflyer]

Easy for me to say, but "Caveat Emptor".
I think most of the populace will have been stung at some point, by some trade, profession or other.

I suppose it's a lesson to us all, and possibly easily managed by clearly stating (possibly in writing) from the outset that increases over the estimate, say between 10% - 15%, should be advised, quantified and justified immediately and before further work.

Just thinking.

Robert, I'm over 60, not wet behind the ears and I know the difference between an estimate and a quote. The point in question is how much 'free rein' does an estimate have without needing to refer to the customer.

It's not as though I was on a mission to Mars over the winter. With modern tech, I am contactable by email, text or phone just about 24/7. IMHO there is no excuse to let things get this far out of hand without the yard getting in touch to discuss it first. In my written instructions for one task I finished with the words "any problems or questions, please get in touch with me".

TBH they are going to have a hell of a job to justify the hours supposedly spent on various jobs and the huge variance on some items (one was ten times the estimate, another three times the estimate). apparently they have an invisible engineer as he managed to book a days work on my boat on the day I was working on it myself!

As I said - I think its an admin error but I want to have a feel for what is reasonable. I believe the civil courts generally work to a principle of what "the man on the Clapham omnibus" would understand to be the case.

 

[Robert Wilson]

Sorry Skyflyer, I wasn't meaning to be clever.
I feel that 10% - 15% would be an acceptable amount of free rein.

I've been stung - and I never seem to take my own advice!

 

[prv]

The point in question is how much 'free rein' does an estimate have without needing to refer to the customer.

I suspect the problem is that their admin is crap and they had no idea how much was being clocked up while doing the work. It's only at the end that they totted everything up (badly, apparently) and found that it worked out to double the estimate.

Easy to see how it could happen, but that doesn't make it ok. I would think that the obvious errors would help your case.

Is there a particular reason you need to keep this yard sweet (only one available in the area, holding your boat hostage ashore, provide your home berth?) or do you have freedom of action?

Pete

 

[Tranona]

Not sure there is a rule of thumb. The problem seems to be twofold. First you did not get a clear understanding of the "rules of engagement" - that is a trigger point at which they need further agreement from you to incur extra cost. Second they seem not to have been honest.

As to the first issue, nothing you can do about that now, but a lesson for the future. However you seem to have a case against them for over charging and charging for work not done.

 

[Koeketiene]

I always ask and always give quotes. Estimates can too easily lead to war. Any extras need to be discussed prior to starting.

+1
Always ask for quotes - estimates aren't worth anything.
Learnt that lesson the hard way.

Only a few weeks ago a yard sent me an estimate for some work - just short of 2K.
Asked for a detailed itemised quote. Price quoted was just over 6K and even then there were some open-ended items.
I did not proceed any further.

 

[guernseyman]

Before you pay, you have some leverage. A court case has an uncertain outcome.
So when I was faced with a bill double the estimate, I had a chat with them, and we settled somewhere in the middle.

 

[Boo2]

Easy for me to say, but "Caveat Emptor".
I think most of the populace will have been stung at some point, by some trade, profession or other.

I suppose it's a lesson to us all, and possibly easily managed by clearly stating (possibly in writing) from the outset that increases over the estimate, say between 10% - 15%, should be advised, quantified and justified immediately and before further work.

I don't think that much helps because if they get half way through and then ring you you're not in any better a position than if they leave it until after the job is complete.

Boo2

 

[prv]

A court case has an uncertain outcome.

Indeed - but thats where the obvious errors are to the OP's advantage. Lay out their claim to have worked 8 hours on the boat on day X alongside some evidence to show he was there alone on day X (doesn't have to be scientifically incontrovertible proof, even an affidavit will do in a pinch) and their credibility in court is shot.

(Whether court or the threat of it is a sensible option depends on many factors that haven't been revealed in this thread.)

Pete

 

[prv]

I don't think that much helps because if they get half way through and then ring you you're not in any better a position than if they leave it until after the job is complete.

I see what you're getting at, but I think being asked for £500 for a half-finished job is better than a demand for £2000 for a finished one, if you can't easily find £2000.

Pete

 

[[3889]]

Easy for me to say, but "Caveat Emptor".
I think most of the populace will have been stung at some point, by some trade, profession or other.

I suppose it's a lesson to us all, and possibly easily managed by clearly stating (possibly in writing) from the outset that increases over the estimate, say between 10% - 15%, should be advised, quantified and justified immediately and before further work.

Just thinking.

Firstly, I would agree with the OP that ~15% increase on an estimate is the limit without further consultation.
I don't see caveat emptor applies...there is no contract is there, certainly not for the 3K being demanded? It's more the yard's problem than the OP's.

 

[steveeasy]

Firstly, I would agree with the OP that ~15% increase on an estimate is the limit without further consultation.
I don't see caveat emptor applies...there is no contract is there, certainly not for the 3K being demanded? It's more the yard's problem than the OP's.

Interesting point, is there no contract ?. does a contract have to be in writing to exist.?

Steveeasy

 

[Robert Wilson]

Firstly, I would agree with the OP that ~15% increase on an estimate is the limit without further consultation.
I don't see caveat emptor applies...there is no contract is there, certainly not for the 3K being demanded? It's more the yard's problem than the OP's.

I used it as a phrase for always taking-off your "rose tinted glasses " when entering into any transaction - not trying to be a legal-eagle.

Interesting point, is there no contract ?. does a contract have to be in writing to exist.?

Steveeasy

As I understand it, a contract is in force if an offer is made and accepted, irrespective of the method of delivery e.g. paper, type-written document. fag-packet, phone-call, face-to-face conversation etc.
Proving what was conveyed and agreed is the tricky bit!
But I may be corrected by those with far greater knowledge