Ermioni and Porto Kheli

[Mr Cassandra]

The Ermioni and Porto Kheli port authority's are now charging for two days stay rather than one night .
When a Danish boat complaind about it, the women collecting the money phoned the Police who came immediately.

 

[macd]

Similar issues have been reported on the CA Med forum.

My understanding is that the letter of the law has for many years stated that an overnight stay is billed as two days. Most harbour authorities have applied this more fairly (i.e. not at all), but there's no reason in law that they should. The passing of responsibility for fee collection to the municipality in many cases, has no doubt caused some former practices to be reviewed.

Clearly it's useful to other cruisers that the 'culprits' be identified, but I fear that neither the Danish boat nor anyone else taking issue has a leg to stand on.

Incidentally, wouldn't have thought the mere arrival of the police was evidence of anything except that they'd been called and had nothing better to do.

 

[dod]

Similar issues have been reported on the CA Med forum.

My understanding is that the letter of the law has for many years stated that an overnight stay is billed as two days. Most harbour authorities have applied this more fairly (i.e. not at all), but there's no reason in law that they should. The passing of responsibility for fee collection to the municipality in many cases, has no doubt caused some former practices to be reviewed.

Clearly it's useful to other cruisers that the 'culprits' be identified, but I fear that neither the Danish boat nor anyone else taking issue has a leg to stand on.

Incidentally, wouldn't have thought the mere arrival of the police was evidence of anything except that they'd been called and had nothing better to do.

The same law was applied in Ikaria, but a quiet complaint to the officer, quoting Solon the lawmaker of Athens 559 BC, was overheard by the Captain of the PP in the next room. He appeared and spoke to the officer and the charges were reduced to the time of arrival and departure rather than the 24 hour period as stated in the 'laws'.
It may be an idea to memorise this quotation for future ref. ' Laws are for guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools'.
A wise man that Captain in Ikaria
Good luck!!

 

[macd]

' Laws are for guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools'.
A wise man that Captain in Ikaria

Wise indeed, but often atypical. A prescient man, Solon, to have anticipated the creation of the port police

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I did mention to the person ,where in the world would you stay in a hotel for one night and have to pay for two days.
Her answer was this is not an hotel. I am the Port authority.....

 

[macd]

I did mention to the person ,where in the world would you stay in a hotel for one night and have to pay for two days.
Her answer was this is not an hotel.

It has been known for marinas to charge in the same way. And, to my knowledge, at least one hospital. I certainly wasn't happy about that.

 

[vyv_cox]

According to one account the Greek authorities have recently instructed the PP to apply the '2 for 1' charge. Not that that means anything to the PP, who will continue to apply whatever rules they prefer.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Greece is getting worst by the month , how long before they start charging for anchoring ?
The best thing boats can do is keep away from these harbour .
Maybe it's time for a list here on harbours that are getting greedy.

 

[NornaBiron]

Greece is getting worst by the month , how long before they start charging for anchoring ?
The best thing boats can do is keep away from these harbour .
Maybe it's time for a list here on harbours that are getting greedy.

Ah, that's not fair, the vast majority of Greece is still either very reasonably charged or free, they're just catching up with the rest of the world - and why shouldn't they.

 

[Tony Cross]

Greece is getting worst by the month , how long before they start charging for anchoring ?
The best thing boats can do is keep away from these harbour .
Maybe it's time for a list here on harbours that are getting greedy.

Ah, that's not fair, the vast majority of Greece is still either very reasonably charged or free, they're just catching up with the rest of the world - and why shouldn't they.

I too think that you're being unfair Vic. The simple fact is that the midnight to midnight rule has been in place for a very long time it's just that most places have chosen not to implement it. That the cash-strapped Greeks now choose to implement a fee structure that has been in place for many years is hardly being unfair.

I fully appreciate that people want to cruise in Greece as cheaply as possible but you cannot complain about the Greeks not paying their taxes if you're going to avoid paying the proper mooring fees. The door swings both ways.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I too think that you're being unfair Vic. The simple fact is that the midnight to midnight rule has been in place for a very long time it's just that most places have chosen not to implement it. That the cash-strapped Greeks now choose to implement a fee structure that has been in place for many years is hardly being unfair.

I fully appreciate that people want to cruise in Greece as cheaply as possible but you cannot complain about the Greeks not paying their taxes if you're going to avoid paying the proper mooring fees. The door swings both ways.

Fair enough point , I allow for around forty euro a day, if the port authority want another ,for me 7.60 euro a day, its not going to be spent in the taverna/shops.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I too think that you're being unfair Vic. The simple fact is that the midnight to midnight rule has been in place for a very long time it's just that most places have chosen not to implement it. That the cash-strapped Greeks now choose to implement a fee structure that has been in place for many years is hardly being unfair.

I fully appreciate that people want to cruise in Greece as cheaply as possible but you cannot complain about the Greeks not paying their taxes if you're going to avoid paying the proper mooring fees. The door swings both ways.

Tony lets not beat around the bush , a lot of these places are nothing to do with the port police , quite a lot now have been sublet to private people who can charge what every they like , yes your right regarding the two day charge for one night stop over but that isn't fair , where else do you stay over night and pay for to days ?
remember mate most turn up 3 pm on wards and leave by 10 the next day .
they wanted 24 euros in mid of March for a one night stop in Gaieos Paxoi , all the water and power was turn off even tho you had to pay extra for it .
the place was empty , we walked over in May and again the harbour was almost empty other then a few charter yachts and one private , i remember gaieos being full to the brim in years gone by , so a greedy harbour guys get rich while all the business from the baker / supermarket to restaurant lose out .
as far as it help them to pay there taxes , well i wont go there .
some would say they make it up with the charter boat , maybe they do in the high of the season but what about all the months when there any charter about .
that 24 euro i paid in March stuck in my throat , i will not be going there again , not by boat any way .

 

[sailaboutvic]

Fair enough point , I allow for around forty euro a day, if the port authority want another ,for me 7.60 euro a day, its not going to be spent in the taverna/shops.

forty euro a day ? i take it you talking about to live on and not mooring fees

 

[Tony Cross]

Tony lets not beat around the bush , a lot of these places are nothing to do with the port police , quite a lot now have been sublet to private people who can charge what every they like , yes your right regarding the two day charge for one night stop over but that isn't fair , where else do you stay over night and pay for to days ?
remember mate most turn up 3 pm on wards and leave by 10 the next day .
they wanted 24 euros in mid of March for a one night stop in Gaieos Paxoi , all the water and power was turn off even tho you had to pay extra for it .
the place was empty , we walked over in May and again the harbour was almost empty other then a few charter yachts and one private , i remember gaieos being full to the brim in years gone by , so a greedy harbour guys get rich while all the business from the baker / supermarket to restaurant lose out .
as far as it help them to pay there taxes , well i wont go there .
some would say they make it up with the charter boat , maybe they do in the high of the season but what about all the months when there any charter about .
that 24 euro i paid in March stuck in my throat , i will not be going there again , not by boat any way .

It is true that a municipality can lease the management of their port to a third party and, if they have the third party can charge whatever they like. However, if the municipality decides to manage the port themselves then they have to stick to the pricing structure laid down by the government (and this includes the midnight to midnight rule).

The municipality has to decide whether it will make more money running the port themselves or taking a leasing fee and letting a third party take the risks. Either way, nobody is going to 'get rich' nor can they afford to 'be greedy, as you point out if a third party charges too much they will loose business and the municipality is stuck with the standard fees.

The supply of water and electricity is not covered by any of the port management rules so the municipality or third party can supply it or not and charge whatever they like. Once again though, if they make it too expensive, too unreliable, or too difficult then they'll make no money.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Yes 40 pd is the max i allow to spend,all in,most days less.It was noticible how few privat boats were tied up in Ermioni; still loads of Greek flaged charter boats.

 

[crisjones]

Well I am with Vic on most of this. Most of liveaboards are well aware of the midnight to midnight rule for Greek harbours but it is not a reasonable way to charge cruising or charter boats for harbour fees, it may well be more sensible for "commercial" boats who have no fixed stopover times and are quite happy with a midnight to midnight charging system.
I have no problem with the harbours charging boats to moor overnight but it would be much better for everyone if it was a simple and consistent overnight charge - no marina would ever consider charging midnight to midnight so why should Greek harbours??
In general Greek harbours are very good value for money but they need to drag themselves into the 21st century. Charge for midday to midday and supply water and electricity - that is what yachts want and what they understand. I have no problem if the private managers of the ports put the prices up - that is their choice and they are running a business after all, we all still have the choice to pay or go somewhere else.
Us liveaboards have to remember that we are very much in the minority, charter boats are the main business for harbours, marinas, tavernas, restaurants etc and the market price will eventually gravitate to what the charter market will pay NOT what the liveaboard will pay. You only have to look at marina and mooring buoy prices in Croatia to see where things are going - Greece will catch up and the charter boats will pay the prices - liveaboards will not!!
Greece has been a wonderful country to cruise around and we have enjoyed nearly 4 years of their hospitality and very cheap harbours. There has been much discussion about Greek Cruising Taxes - I believe it would be much better to increase Harbour dues to collect the money then people will still have a choice to go into harbour and pay or cruise Greece and enjoy the wonderful anchorages for free.
€24 for a night in Gaios without water and electric in March is taking the p!55 in Greece but would be considered a bargain in Italy!!
Tony can recite the law as much as he likes but it still does not change the fact that the Greeks are operating in an antiquated fashion and they need to get themselves up to speed with modern practices. Unfortunately us liveaboards will undoutedly loose out because charter boats will happily pay much more than we will, but we can still anchor for free in Greece and there are thousands of places to do so.
Hopefully it will take many years before Greece catches up with Croatia as far as extracting money from yachts is concerned. Certainly it is possible to cruise Croatia without paying fees but it is much easier in Greece - at the moment??

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I think we need to concider where we are talking about.As there seems to have been quite a few problems in the past in the Ermioni area with port police/ authority. Standard charge in Astros, Poros and no charge in Nafpilo.

 

[Tony Cross]

Well I am with Vic on most of this. Most of liveaboards are well aware of the midnight to midnight rule for Greek harbours but it is not a reasonable way to charge cruising or charter boats for harbour fees, it may well be more sensible for "commercial" boats who have no fixed stopover times and are quite happy with a midnight to midnight charging system.
I have no problem with the harbours charging boats to moor overnight but it would be much better for everyone if it was a simple and consistent overnight charge - no marina would ever consider charging midnight to midnight so why should Greek harbours??
In general Greek harbours are very good value for money but they need to drag themselves into the 21st century. Charge for midday to midday and supply water and electricity - that is what yachts want and what they understand. I have no problem if the private managers of the ports put the prices up - that is their choice and they are running a business after all, we all still have the choice to pay or go somewhere else.
Us liveaboards have to remember that we are very much in the minority, charter boats are the main business for harbours, marinas, tavernas, restaurants etc and the market price will eventually gravitate to what the charter market will pay NOT what the liveaboard will pay. You only have to look at marina and mooring buoy prices in Croatia to see where things are going - Greece will catch up and the charter boats will pay the prices - liveaboards will not!!
Greece has been a wonderful country to cruise around and we have enjoyed nearly 4 years of their hospitality and very cheap harbours. There has been much discussion about Greek Cruising Taxes - I believe it would be much better to increase Harbour dues to collect the money then people will still have a choice to go into harbour and pay or cruise Greece and enjoy the wonderful anchorages for free.
€24 for a night in Gaios without water and electric in March is taking the p!55 in Greece but would be considered a bargain in Italy!!
Tony can recite the law as much as he likes but it still does not change the fact that the Greeks are operating in an antiquated fashion and they need to get themselves up to speed with modern practices. Unfortunately us liveaboards will undoutedly loose out because charter boats will happily pay much more than we will, but we can still anchor for free in Greece and there are thousands of places to do so.
Hopefully it will take many years before Greece catches up with Croatia as far as extracting money from yachts is concerned. Certainly it is possible to cruise Croatia without paying fees but it is much easier in Greece - at the moment??

Their house, their rules I'm afraid.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Their house, their rules I'm afraid.

your quite right Tony , my house my rules .
That's why i don't spend much money or time in Greece these days, three months last year and four the year before , where once I use to spend good 9 months and easily parted with 15k does it matter to the Greek ? i spec no but it matter to me and there a big saving to have and the winter weather is much better .
Greece is very luck that Turkey has problem which partly why we seeing these charges , but thing will get better in Turkey .
then we will see.

 

[sailaboutvic]

This is what Greece is coming too Tony ,
"" Well don't go to pythogoria on Samoa then. I was charged 20 euro for 1 hour on the quay. Port authority ( not police they arw different) reason being I could have been there since just after his last check 23 hours previous! Total rip off but when pressed the port police when called backed him up. Won't be back but the harbour stinks of raw sewage anyway""