EPIRB

[boomerangben]

It is interesting to see discussions on response times to 406 hits. I was on the sharp end of a couple of false alarms with good intentions and also aware of very swift responses to real hits. But I don’t know what was happening in the back ground. It seems to me if your PLB goes ping and they call your nominated contact and they say yes, he/she is out sailing between x and y, response could be very swift. If it’s coupled with a DSC hit, it would be even quicker. In other words, I don’t think concerns about the response times to PLB should cloud people’s decision whether to buy one or not for single handing. A PLB is better than nothing, not perfect, and a lot easier to carry and use if treading water (or even floating in a LJ) than other alternatives.

It would be useful to know more about the facts regarding false activations and the response process.

I’m not sure about 2 way comms. In principle absolutely, two way comms is always going to help. But whilst I tend to carry my HH VHF on me when sailing SH, I have no great confidence it will have much range or indeed I would be at all intelligible if the microphone was full of water (I know some have auto clear but water tends to come in waves).

 

[Mark-1]

I’m not sure about 2 way comms. In principle absolutely, two way comms is always going to help. But whilst I tend to carry my HH VHF on me when sailing SH, I have no great confidence it will have much range or indeed I would be at all intelligible if the microphone was full of water (I know some have auto clear but water tends to come in waves).

Well it's far from optimal but I'd have the rest of my life to get a message across. The mobile phone I refer to is an old person's simple button push phone, no touch screen. I have no doubt I could dial, and in the waters I single-handed in I'm pretty sure I had mobile coverage. Probably better chance of reaching someone than a VHF.

But yeah, anything in that situation would be a struggle including holding an PLB antenna. It's a gamble.

Ideally you'd have all three but the bulk of a radio and mobile is already beyond a joke, something has to give and it's the PLB for me. My single handed days are over or paused so hopefully I'll never find out if I gambled right.

It's a fundamental paradox though. Anything easy to deploy will cause false alarms and therefore poor response and anything hard to do will be hard to do.

I'm sure there have been incidents. That doesn't necessarily show bad process, it will often show process not being followed etc.

Bad process is an unhelpful term here. As suggested above there may not even be a process and if there is it will never square the circle of a minority of rescues requiring an immediate deployment of help while well over 90% of alerts are false alarms.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

M.

Well it's far from optimal but I'd have the rest of my life to get a message across. The mobile phone I refer to is an old person's simple button push phone, no touch screen. I have no doubt I could dial, and in the waters I single-handed in I'm pretty sure I had mobile coverage. Probably better chance of reaching someone than a VHF.

But yeah, anything in that situation would be a struggle including holding an PLB antenna. It's a gamble.

Ideally you'd have all three but the bulk of a radio and mobile is already beyond a joke, something has to give and it's the PLB for me. My single handed days are over or paused so hopefully I'll never find out if I gambled right.

It's a fundamental paradox though. Anything easy to deploy will cause false alarms and therefore poor response and anything hard to do will be hard to do.

My friends dsc radio was stolen and the first thing he knew about it was the coast guard ringing him and asking if he really had a hazard one mile in land (Southmead)

Idiot their pressed dsc button to test things. Idiot legal system believed his story that he got it from Car boot sale

So CG do check first and emergency services not sent to housing estate

But back to main thread, on the route between Cornwall and W Scotland, there are areas where there is no mobile signal and no vhf coverage as we could not receive cg weather reports. A plb is the body worn tool needed for emergency

 

[lustyd]

DSC and EPIRB are very different services and have different responses so not things to compare.
AIS beacons even worse, the CG only ever call on 16 to ask for information, I’ve never heard them take any follow up action or even consider it a Mayday.

 

[ylop]

DSC and EPIRB are very different services and have different responses so not things to compare.

A strange set of rules for you to impose on us. They are both means of alerting CG to a distress. There is a delay between activating a PLB/EPIRB and the local MRCC getting the details. Better than it used to be but unavoidable.

AIS beacons even worse, the CG only ever call on 16 to ask for information, I’ve never heard them take any follow up action or even consider it a Mayday.

Had the information ever been that there was actually a MOB? Not that I expect CG to be monitoring AIS but it would be surprising if their attitude after becoming aware of a situation was "well its probably not serious as they've not used a PLB" which is kind of what you are implying.

 

[Mark-1]

But back to main thread, on the route between Cornwall and W Scotland, there are areas where there is no mobile signal and no vhf coverage as we could not receive cg weather reports. A plb is the body worn tool needed for emergency

Yeah, clearly for that trip sat is the only option.

 

[lustyd]

A strange set of rules for you to impose on us.

I'm not imposing anything, just saying it's fruitless to compare the two as they are very different systems for different scenarios and outcomes.

Had the information ever been that there was actually a MOB? Not that I expect CG to be monitoring AIS but it would be surprising if their attitude after becoming aware of a situation was "well its probably not serious as they've not used a PLB" which is kind of what you are implying.

MOB beacons go off all of the time, the UK CG don't react other than to broadcast that they received an alert and to ask for further information. They do broadcast the location if known, but do not initiate a rescue without further information. We've heard these on many occasions all around the coasts of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I believe we also heard similar from the Irish CG radio on one occasion. AIS MOB devices are to alert your boat and those nearby of a problem, and usually "those nearby" means when you're racing. The average boater wouldn't even recognise the message and in the Solent would be so used to hitting OK that they wouldn't even register anything but an annoying beep. MOB devices are very useful for racing activities with crew and other boats, but aside from that I consider them fairly useless and worse than that, they make lifejackets heavier and less comfortable.

 

[Mark-1]

I'm not imposing anything, just saying it's fruitless to compare the two as they are very different systems for different scenarios and outcomes.

MOB beacons go off all of the time, the UK CG don't react other than to broadcast that they received an alert and to ask for further information. They do broadcast the location if known, but do not initiate a rescue without further information. We've heard these on many occasions all around the coasts of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I believe we also heard similar from the Irish CG radio on one occasion. AIS MOB devices are to alert your boat and those nearby of a problem, and usually "those nearby" means when you're racing. The average boater wouldn't even recognise the message and in the Solent would be so used to hitting OK that they wouldn't even register anything but an annoying beep. MOB devices are very useful for racing activities with crew and other boats, but aside from that I consider them fairly useless and worse than that, they make lifejackets heavier and less comfortable.

Agree with most of that but if the AIS MOB is bundled with a standard PLB then I think it adds enough value to be well worth it:

Ocean Signal RescueMe PLB3 AIS-MOB / PLB Beacon with RLS & NFC (SEPI3115)​

So the PLB raises the alert, CG communicate it to all vessels and all of a sudden everyone around has an incentive to investigate the message box they closed without reading and the funny symbol they hadn't noticed. They might get there before the pros.

 

[ylop]

I'm not imposing anything, just saying it's fruitless to compare the two as they are very different systems for different scenarios and outcomes.

They are for exactly the same scenario! The reason it matters is that a PLB or EPIRB introduces a delay (at the very least ~ 5 min for you>satellite>ground station>MRCC). That's before they even start investigating who's it is etc. PLB or EPIRB is where you turn when the faster tools have failed - messaging that the response is "instant" risk misleading people that they should reach for that as the first tool.

MOB beacons go off all of the time, the UK CG don't react other than to broadcast that they received an alert and to ask for further information.

There are several types of MOB beacons. AIS only, AIS+DSC, AIS+PLB I've only ever seen one show up on AIS (and it was in a harbour). I'm far from the most populated sailing area of the UK, but there are races pass by.

They do broadcast the location if known, but do not initiate a rescue without further information.

Having never heard the CG respond to one how does that conversation go? Are you really saying that if nobody provides a reassuring response they don't do anything to follow up? I hadn't really expected the CG to "see" the alert at all, but once they have...

AIS MOB devices are to alert your boat and those nearby of a problem, and usually "those nearby" means when you're racing. The average boater wouldn't even recognise the message and in the Solent would be so used to hitting OK that they wouldn't even register anything but an annoying beep. MOB devices are very useful for racing activities with crew and other boats, but aside from that I consider them fairly useless and worse than that, they make lifejackets heavier and less comfortable.

I'd have thought they were ideal for you and Mrs L when on prolonged passage - if one of you is asleep, the autopilot is on and the other one goes for an unscheduled swim how are you going to be aware of that?

 

[lustyd]

They are for exactly the same scenario!

Not even close, so I stopped reading here.

DSC is a digital messaging platform which allows for an urgency message to be sent as a request for help by those who receive the message. That doesn’t include rescue organisations necessarily.

EPIRB is a part of the global rescue operations and includes fully automated operation for unlicensed users to initiate a rescue with an assumption of response. It is monitored and run by the rescue organisations directly.

To suggest similarities just because the end user needs help is incredibly naive.

 

[lustyd]

but if the AIS MOB is bundled with a standard PLB then I think it adds enough value to be well worth it:

I don’t disagree at all, it’s useful to have features even if they may not be useful. If there were no penalty in carrying the AIS component then of course any chance of rescue is better.

For what it’s worth, I no longer have any electronics on my lifejacket. It was just too bulky so I stopped wearing it. i figured better to actually wear it!

 

[ylop]

Not even close, so I stopped reading here.

 

[Dockhead]

AIS beacons even worse, the CG only ever call on 16 to ask for information, I’ve never heard them take any follow up action or even consider it a Mayday.

I think the primary purpose of AIS beacons is not to get a CG response, but to allow the mother ship to find the casualty. More modern AIS beacons also send a DSC alert, but for UK-registered boats, only to the mother ship's VHF set, not to the CG and not to other vessels around.

That changes with the Class M beacons. I bought two costly MOB-1 beacons literally a month before the new Class M standard was announced.

I carry both a PLB and an AIS beacon in my life jacket; totally different purposes and systems and use cases. I would love to have a DSC-capable VHF handheld in my life jacket as well, but there's not one compact enough to make this practical.

 

[lustyd]

Yes I agree, I was pointing it out just because quite a few people don't realise that AIS/VHF beacons are very localised and aimed at the boat/fleet you're on so it's a useful reminder when people find these type of threads.

 

[dunedin]

…..I carry both a PLB and an AIS beacon in my life jacket; totally different purposes and systems and use cases. I would love to have a DSC-capable VHF handheld in my life jacket as well, but there's not one compact enough to make this practical.

We have MOB1 AIS devices inside the “offshore lifejackets” - ie ones used for any serious weather, overnight and singlehanded sailing. As you say, bought primarily to alert the mother ship if crew went OB in dark on trip to Norway, for example.
When solo I also carry mobile phone (used as camera etc) plus ultra small VHF (HX40E) clipped onto lifejackets strap (with safety lanyard as well) - this wouldn’t fit inside and better outside anyway as can be used occasionally (eg in dinghy).
Finally often have PLB in trouser pocket - again not in lifejacket, as only carried on person if solo.
Total weight of safety gadgets probably a lot less then a set of oilskins, even when dry - which rarely wear on our boat (not even when sailed in January).