EPIRB

[oldmanofthehills]

Have you got a source for that?

It surely can't be both? Liferaft usually has a drogue, dinghy does not. If you were entering dinghy or l/raft you might be better putting your epirb in there too.

My info is seemingly out of date, as modern plans seem to broadcast in 406 and 121mhz, Satelites no longer scan for 121mhz unlike when I bought my kit, but local rescue services do

It would indeed be better to put eprib in liferaft or dinghy, but auto release eprib may have set off on its own as boat sinks

 

[Mark-1]

All 406. Devices such as epirbs and plb's. must be registered with the owners details. There may be delays in the event an unregistered or incorrectly registered device is activated.

The link I posted above says they do register them. But I think it must be a myth that being unregistered delays rescue because I can't see what they'd be doing during that delay. If it's registered clearly they can do a phone round to find out if it's legit and obvs that comes with a delay. If it's not registered there is no research they can do. They only way they can find out if it's legit or not is to immediately send an asset out to sea to take a look.

I could understand if they had a policy of never responding to unregistered EPIRBS but delaying? Why?

 

[lustyd]

My info is seemingly out of date, as modern plans seem to broadcast in 406 and 121mhz, Satelites no longer scan for 121mhz unlike when I bought my kit, but local rescue services do

It would indeed be better to put eprib in liferaft or dinghy, but auto release eprib may have set off on its own as boat sinks

121 was a local homing beacon, nothing to do with satellites. The difference between PLB and EPIRB is just battery life, 24+ and 72+ and usually ability to float.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

121 was a local homing beacon, nothing to do with satellites. The difference between PLB and EPIRB is just battery life, 24+ and 72+ and usually ability to float.

Until 2009 satellites monitored the 121.5mhz.
Prior to 2009 many eprib beacons were 121.5mhz only
I bought my kit in 2008/2009 so must check my plb does transmit in 406mhz, though I think it does (I know my eprib does)

 

[westernman]

EPRIBs link to different satellite channels compared to PLB and get picked up by system faster.

I don't think that is true.

The biggest difference is that an EPIRB is guaranteed to keep transmitting for 48h where as it is 24h for a PLB.
I don't think there a many regions you will be sailing where the extra 24h is going to make any difference.

 

[Bilgediver]

Really good point that I hadn't considered. A PLB is for emergencies where you have both hands free and nothing else to do. Such emergencies might not be common.

I would suggest your own registered to you PLB with your details on the registration document. I would be wary about renting an EPIRB or PLB registered to someone else with someone else's emergency contact details. Such missing or incorrect details can result in unnecessary delays to the rescue.

 

[lustyd]

To be clear, missing or incorrect information on EPIRBS doesn’t delay anything at all. The information is used to make enquires while the response is under way, not before it starts. An unregistered device will still get a response.

 

[Dockhead]

I hate to be the purveyor of doom but they all serve the same purpose if you go overboard off shore. Much better to invest your coin in methods of preventing leaving the boat unexpectedly.

Actually, having a PLB in your life jacket is not just for overboard -- it's also for pulling the panic button from the life raft, or from the mother ship in some dire emergency.

It does the same thing an EPIRB does but for a day less (according to the standard), and is compact and much more likely to be on your person.

Overboard in the cold waters around the UK it's unlikely you'll survive long enough to be rescued by PLB -- the process is inherently longer. For this it's better to have an AIS beacon. Or if single handed, just stay on the boat no matter what. But that does not eliminate the need for a PLB.

PLB works on land, too, in case you're hiking and have some disaster. It's a good thing to have. I keep mine in my life jacket always.

 

[requiem]

At this point, 121.5 should be considered a historical curiosity. (Yes, I know some will still home on it if they don't have modern equipment, but that 25 mW signal is not nearly as effective as the direction-finding equipment that uses the 5W 406 MHz signal.) Anything that doesn't transmit on 406MHz should be retired and replaced.

Most places that offer EPIRBs for hire should update the registration details, but as others mention it shouldn't delay response. This is all country-specific, of course! There is the related question of how often various databases sync; if I go online and update my beacon registration details on Wednesday, but that registration database only syncs to international databases each Monday, then there's a delay.

I have PLB that I loan to a family member for hiking; I simply added their details to the registration at the time.

 

[requiem]

Based on some case reports, some comments from a pilot regarding the different frequencies:

The DF equipment work extremely well. Once we got up into the Class "A" airspace (above 18,000') we were picking up multiple DF hits. At about 150nm's out, we got a solid lock that coincided with the position passed by our Command Center. As we got closer, it was apparent that the DF was pointing a few miles away from the GPS coordinates passed by the Sector...probably due to normal drift - wind/current. We went strait to the where DF needle was pointing us. The weather on scene when we initially got there was really crappy...night time, low ceiling, lightning in the vicinity, about 60-65 knot winds, and at least 8 ft seas. There was a pretty intense weather system that was passing through the area and we hit the tail end of it. Luckily, it was moving away from us. We weren't able to locate the strobe on the first pass.We did get a good needle swing and marked the associated position. With the next couple of passes we positively identified the strobe on the beacon...maybe15 minutes total into the sortie...the DF was spot on. The 121.5 was very very weak...only being audible for a period of a few seconds when we were directly overhead. One thing I thought was interesting was that we got the standard erroneous DF needle indications while in turns. For whatever reason, I assumed this was eliminated with this equipment. During our third or fourth passes we located the object that we thought might be the raft. Once again the weather was inclement and we were having a hard time positively identifying it. It was about 1 nm away from the strobe.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Actually, having a PLB in your life jacket is not just for overboard -- it's also for pulling the panic button from the life raft, or from the mother ship in some dire emergency.

It does the same thing an EPIRB does but for a day less (according to the standard), and is compact and much more likely to be on your person.

Overboard in the cold waters around the UK it's unlikely you'll survive long enough to be rescued by PLB -- the process is inherently longer. For this it's better to have an AIS beacon. Or if single handed, just stay on the boat no matter what. But that does not eliminate the need for a PLB.

PLB works on land, too, in case you're hiking and have some disaster. It's a good thing to have. I keep mine in my life jacket always.

I'm one of the few on here who has had a real response to my PLB (FAST FIND 220). I left it on my mates boat when I flew home from the Azores. Simo arrives in Horta

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Based on some case reports, some comments from a pilot regarding the different frequencies:

I spent the early 90's as a flight engineer on Nimrods. Pre-GPS for us. Multi hit Satellite derived initial position and then 121.5 homing and or eyeballs. It worked fine and a good beacon gave us homing from many many miles.

 

[Dockhead]

EPRIBs link to different satellite channels compared to PLB and get picked up by system faster.. . .

EPIRBs and PLBs use the same satellites -- the LEOSAR, GEOSAR, and MEOSAR constellations, both use the same frequency (406mhz) and the same protocols. Both give a 121.5 MHz homing signal for final localization. EPIRBs have somewhat more powerful transmitters and longer lasting batteries, but the work in the same way and get the same kind of response.

There is a difference in how they are registered -- PLB's to people; EPIRB's to vessels.

 

[Skik op reis]

I normally sail with SWMBO. Assuming we don't overboard together (unintentionally) whoever is left on board is charged with doing the necessary.
However, this year I am planning a trip from Cardiff to Glasgow alone. It would seem prudent to carry an EPIRB BUT. I can't justify ~£400 just for a few weeks.
Hiring seems to be an option.
Recommendations please.

I'm not a spending type myself eather. Also I'm not a big fan of wellknown brands that target on us yachties. That being said, I'm very glad with my Garmin inreach mini instead of an Epirb. It is used by a lot of outdoor sporters. Combined with your mobile it brings on advantages as contact out of GSM and radio, weatherforecasts and a splendid SAR. I always wear it on my safety harnass. I consider it as an wise investment. Not only for sailing alone but also as responsibility when there is familie on board. Altough I recently bought a liferaft as well, I sailed for decades with only a dinghy. I prioritised ( is that proper English?) the SAR above a raft ( in coastal waters). On multiple day tracks you will need to check and recharge. But 95% of my solotrips are within 48 hours ( because getting tired is a risk of it's own).

 

[lustyd]

The Garmin needs a subscription as their SAR command centre is a private company.
EPIRBs do not have any ongoing costs and the MRCCs are national infrastructure.

EPIRB batteries are guaranteed for a decade to last a number of hours in an emergency. The Garmin is one forgotten charge away from useless and even if it’s charged has no guarantees on how long it can operate. The Garmin doesn’t float either.

The messaging aspect of the Garmin is useful but there’s no way I’d replace an EPIRB with it.

 

[Skik op reis]

The Garmin needs a subscription as their SAR command centre is a private company.
EPIRBs do not have any ongoing costs and the MRCCs are national infrastructure.

EPIRB batteries are guaranteed for a decade to last a number of hours in an emergency. The Garmin is one forgotten charge away from useless and even if it’s charged has no guarantees on how long it can operate. The Garmin doesn’t float either.

The messaging aspect of the Garmin is useful but there’s no way I’d replace an EPIRB with it.

I sure don't feel any need to promote garmin. But I can't withstand the challenge to react. The charging issue is often brought into disccusion about the Inreach. In my experience the device is never empty just BECAUSE of the other functions. Just as my mobile is never empty because I frequently use it and get noticed. This is a key difference with a Epirb that is out of sight and use, only to be used I.c.e. How many will check the batteries of the Epirb every now and then?
But off course it is a personal choice.

 

[Mark-1]

The Garmin needs a subscription as their SAR command centre is a private company.
EPIRBs do not have any ongoing costs and the MRCCs are national infrastructure.

EPIRB batteries are guaranteed for a decade to last a number of hours in an emergency. The Garmin is one forgotten charge away from useless and even if it’s charged has no guarantees on how long it can operate. The Garmin doesn’t float either.

The messaging aspect of the Garmin is useful but there’s no way I’d replace an EPIRB with it.

A "satellite emergency messenger" (FWOABW) can be tested end to end every day, you can't end-to-end test an EPRIB. The first time you find you got a duff one is the day you need it. You might forget to charge a "satellite emergency messenger", but then you might forget to replace your EPIRB and you might forget to charge every single other communications device you have.

As for describing two way comms as useful, we've all seen the MAIB reports of people who are dead because their EPIRB couldn't be independently verified as a genuine emergency in the time they had left to live. I'd argue two way comms as essential, not useful. Epribs go back to the early 80's - it's 40 year old standard, I am sure if they were developing it today it would have two way comms to establish the emergency is geninue without investigation by the rescuers which is a) Often fatal and b) A total waste of CG effort. (Google says 98% of EPIRB/PLB activations reported to rescue authorities are false alarms!!!!).

 

[ylop]

To be clear, missing or incorrect information on EPIRBS doesn’t delay anything at all. The information is used to make enquires while the response is under way, not before it starts. An unregistered device will still get a response.

I think that is a bit of linguistic semantics. Attempting to contact the shore contact and attempting to contact the vessel and others who may have sight of the vessel is part of the response rather than a pre-response step. Look at any MAIB report where an EPIRB or PLB has been the first distress alert and you’ll see a narrative of the timeline - it doesn’t work quite as magically as people would like to suggest.

Incorrect details would potentially be worse than no details. But “Yes they are sailing from Cardiff to Glasgow with 2 people on board, I last heard from them 12 hrs ago” potentially gets a different response from “unregistered”. Both will get a response. Even if the only difference was the content of an all ships broadcast to vessels in the area - they may be first on scene.

 

[Mark-1]

I sure don't feel any need to promote garmin. But I can't withstand the challenge to react. The charging issue is often brought into disccusion about the Inreach. In my experience the device is never empty just BECAUSE of the other functions. Just as my mobile is never empty because I frequently use it and get noticed. This is a key difference with a Epirb that is out of sight and use, only to be used I.c.e. How many will check the batteries of the Epirb every now and then?
But off course it is a personal choice.

I agree with this so strongly the "like" button wasn't enough! Stuff you use day to day works and gets replaced when it breaks and you know how to use it. Stuff that sits on a shelf for years, less so. As you say we all choose what works for us, but the case against "satellite emergency messengers" is pretty flimsy. (Personally, I'm too tight to pay the subscription!)

 

[Mark-1]

I think that is a bit of linguistic semantics. Attempting to contact the shore contact and attempting to contact the vessel and others who may have sight of the vessel is part of the response rather than a pre-response step. Look at any MAIB report where an EPIRB or PLB has been the first distress alert and you’ll see a narrative of the timeline - it doesn’t work quite as magically as people would like to suggest.

I think the truth is we just don't know and it isn't written down anywhere. There's also a vast amount of misinformation around it. If Google is right and 98% of EPIRB/PLB activations reported to rescue authorities are false alarms then how much urgency is really applied to each one?

For me an EPIRB is a bit like a highly glorified version of being reported overdue, no matter how fast they launch assets the unconscious assumption is going to be false alarm. Whereas an emergency signal from a "satellite emergency messenger", combined with some text to say 'this is effing real" is going to get an immediate and enthusiastic response.