Engineering or "Market Forces"?

[MedDreamer]

Engineering or \"Market Forces\"?

Why do diesel engines cost so much more than petrol.

They are both based on 100+ year old technology, both are basically big blocks of cast metal with a few things bolted on. Is there something significantly more expensive in the build or is it just a rip off.

The differential in cars is not as great



<hr width=100% size=1>Martyn

 

[DepSol]

Re: Engineering or \"Market Forces\"?

In some cases the car is cheaper.

<hr width=100% size=1>Dom

2003 is going to be a good year for me

 

[gonfishing]

Re: Engineering or \"Market Forces\"?

hi martin
Anything with a marine tag is usually about treble what it should be in the normal world, this is based on the assumption that, because it is marine it is of a higher standard and superior quality to every thing else,CRAP!! coz we have boats we are rich, and can afford it!!!!! maybe in Nelsons day but not now,it's just an excuse to overcharge but how many of us REALLY complain about the prices we are charged?
i suppose if you are forking out 1.5 million on a sunseeker £200.00 quid for heater plug(if you know what one is) is neither here nor there, and the rest of us are treated the same,money no object??

me thinks i'll duck now!!!!!!!!!

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[PGD]

Re: Engineering or "Market Forces"?

It's funny I was selling some bits on the American car web sites from my old GMC V6 - quoted a guy 300 quid for a full head, telling him that a new one would be about 6-800 quid.

Got told in no uncertain terms that he could get them from the breakers for 90 quid each.

So yes - we are supposed to be rich and not have a clue about a fair price - how wrong they all are - the mairne industry suffers from premium pricing gone mad, there's in effect too many people with too much money that are happy to pay the inflated prices so we all suffer down the line. And with new sales static - ish the money for the 2 bn indusrty market has to be made up out of add one sales.

Hence a petrol engine will cost you 5k and a diesel one 8-9k - petrol add on cost of running is say 3-4 times the cost of diesel so you pay at least double the price for the engine and the cheap runnig cost and look at a longer return time - if any ! so its fork out now knowing that the same money will be worth less / cost you more in the future. Had enough I have !!!!

Peter




<hr width=100% size=1>cooking on gas - no way - running on diesel /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

 

[Nick2]

Re: Engineering or \"Market Forces\"?

Good point - my diesel car is actually cheaper than the petrol version............

Makes you think doesn't it?

Nick

<hr width=100% size=1>Just can't understand why I'm not allowed to bring my new dinghy into the house.....

 

[Solitaire]

Re: Engineering or \"Market Forces\"?

Here is an extract from a posting I made earlier this month. It goes to reinforce the point. The question I ask is why do we still pay the price? I think there is a need for a web site which lists parts and sources them for use in boats. We could all save a fortune and the site would make money - a boating copoperative site? Em thats got me thinking???!!

"Yesterday I went to RK Marine to buy a 3 way switch for the leg trim. I was quoted £8 plus the VAT - expensive for a switch, but then it is Volvo! This morning the phone rang to say the switch was in and I could collect it. So off I go armed with a tenner, arrived at RK asked for my part and was told that will be £25 Sir. What! You quoted me a tenner yesterday! So we did sir, but the part number has changed its now £20 plus VAT. Talk about a bloody racket!!!!!!!!!!! The good thing was that RK gave it to me at the old price as the micro fish had not been updated - so if you think you need a 3 way switch get down there fast!"








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[Eightpots]

Re: Engineering or \"Market Forces\"?

Its all to do with the size of the market. The marine market is a relatively small market compared to the Car market. Most families will have 2 or even three cars, but how many families have a boat. Add to that that it costs of marinising an engine on top of the engine production costs.

Other factors that need to be taken into account are distribution costs. a car maker will have an engine plant churning out engines. these engines then go to the car production plant. So engines go from A to B. Then look at the marine market. They go from production to the marinising plant then onto the various boat builders scattered all over the world. Logistics have got to cost more.

Then build into the cost of warrentey repairs. The engines that were designed to plod a truck or car around the road system would lead a fairly easy life compared to the marine counterpart, which will hve the nuts revved out of it for fairly long periods. So something has got to break now and then! Plus the enviroment that its got to operate in is not ideal.

Then look at the dealers. They probably don't get the discounts from the makers, unlike the car dealers who will get a bonus for shifting X amount of units. The spares market is much smaller too. How many ford Repmobiles have plodded up and down the road network. Millions, all using service parts by the bucket load. How often does the average marine engine get a service!





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[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: Engineering or \"Market Forces\"?

With one or two exceptions, its the same for cars. Diesel engines are generally heavier than petrol engines of equivalent power possibly because of the significantly higher compression ratios that diesels have to run at. This may account for slightly higher manufacturing costs but I think the main reason for the price differential is a cynical marketing ploy. Manufacturers pitch the price of their automotive and marine diesels just cheap enough to make it economical to buy the diesel alternative

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[MedDreamer]

Re: Engineering or \"Market Forces\"?

So basically, the boat industry pitch their pricing at the point where they can cream off the fuel saving but just leave us suckers enough to feel we are winning.

How does this work in France, Spain and other countries where the price differential between petrol and diesel is not as great?



<hr width=100% size=1>Martyn

 

[jimi]

Re: Engineering or "Market Forces"?

I would have thought that there are really two factors here.
a) the economies of scale, longer production runs mean more units over which to recover R&D as well as other manufacturing economies. So in the 'old' days when there were comparatively fewer diesel engined cars on the road they were relatively more expensive for that reason?
b)Law of supply and demand, price tends to get set at what the market will pay for the supply on offer, or supply is constrained at the amount where production is profitable. In the case of niche suppliers , the tend to be able to charge what they want as demand is relatively inelastic in a niche market and the niche supplier is in a monopolistic situation in that market controlling supply and thus price. However if the supplier is sensible they will not be too greedy as if they end up making super profits they will attract entrants into that market thus destroying they're comfortable stituation ... here endeth my simplistic homily ...

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[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: Engineering or \"Market Forces\"?

Actually, I think diesel engines in boats make less economic sense in the Med but there are still issues of fuel consumption, safety, reliability and longevity which tip the balance towards diesel

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[Guest]

Re: Engineering or "Market Forces"?

Diesel engines have a major disadvantage compared to petrols, they operate at lower revs. In order to provide the same performance, they either have to have a larger capacity or to have forced induction which seems to be the current trend.
The cost of the turbocharger and/or supercharger together with an intercooler must all contribute to the price differentual.

Perhaps to widen the discussion, are high speed supercharged diesels any more reliable than a bog standard petrol with the same power ?

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[Eightpots]

Re: Engineering or "Market Forces"?

Theres a good point in what you say. Some of the smaller capacity diesels with the larger outputs must be fairly heavily stressed. Look at the Yanmar 230hp. All that from a 4 cylinder block. When delivering all this power it must be running on or close to the edge.

The other argument re the safety of diesel is a bit of a lame one. If the petrol was so inherantly dangerous, the yank builders would,nt put them in their homemarket boats. With the "sue yer arse off" mentality of the US legal system, half the builders would be too scared to. And all those that say "Oh its ok, I run a diesel". What about all the gas you carry onboard. Thats just as, if not more, dangerous than petrol.

In more recent times, most of the engine builders have put electronic control systems in the guise of ECU's on their engines. So now the modern deisels are relying heavily on electronics for management systems. This will put it on par with the petrol units ignition system. So the electronics and water don't mix argument is blown out of the water, so to speak.

My boat has two V8 petrols. I've seen the same model fitted with twin diesels. I is much heavier in the stern, the handling is not as good, its slower, noiseier and dearer to service. In the average lesuire boat. The cost difference in the fuels won't really be noticable unless the usage goes over the 150 hour mark a year. Most lesuire users are lucky if they can get to half that figure.

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[Dave_Snelson]

Re: Engineering or \"Market Forces\"?

I think market forces. They know damn well that diesel has many advantages over petrol, not just running cost.

However....the extra you pay is also reflected in resale value.

<hr width=100% size=1>Madoc Yacht Club
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.madocyachtclub.co.uk>http://www.madocyachtclub.co.uk</A>

 

[oldgit]

Re for pocket money fuel costs you really need the need the big D.

Princess 25 3 ton ish.....5 litre V6 petrol... average day out 40 quid.
princess 33 8 tons.......2 x 6 cyl diesel.....average day out 20 quid
All figures very rough and ready

<hr width=100% size=1>Oooh look its still not dark and its nearly 5pm

 

[MedDreamer]

Re: Re for pocket money fuel costs you really need the need the big D.

I read somewhere that the economic crossover point from petrol to diesel in UK waters is around 100 hours per year. Is this still true.

I intend takimg my boat to the med within the next two years where fuel prices are more even. Considering the extra capital outlay and more expensive servicing does diesel ever make economic sense?

I know the old timers on here will point out safety as a secondary concern but this is just a matter of common sense and dilligence.

Should I change to diesel for the med and if so why?



<hr width=100% size=1>Martyn

 

[tcm]

Re: swap for diesels ? No:

Not if you already have petrol, imho. "Super" is far more easily available in the med than UK, becos of the zillions of teeensy fishing boats.

Also, with a boat in the med, there's less need to drive miles to find "somewhere nice" - we've had great days just a mile outside the harbour. Well, okay not a mile, actually 600 yards.

You'll have to work (too hard imho) to do over 100 hours a year in the med - 75 is more normal. With a new exciting boat last year, and belting round corsica and balearix etc etc 9 weeks off we still only did 225. But more usually it's under 100.

stick with the petrols imho.



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[MedDreamer]

Re: swap for diesels ? No:

Thanks John

That was my thinking but its good to have it confirmed by someone with the experience. I'm currently thinking about Costa Brava - plenty of flights and it opens up SoF as well as Spain.

What are your cruising plans for your boat this year?. You said in your MBY article that you were thinking of chartering this year - is this still on the cards - asking purely out of interest as I could never afford it.

Regards

<hr width=100% size=1>Martyn