gordmac
Well-Known Member
If it is a normal straight four engine 1,4,3,2 makes no sense. 1,3,4,2 is normal although Ford Kents were 1,2,4,3 from what I remember. If it is a v4 I don't know.
Engine will not start - advice please
- Thread starter oGaryo
- Start date
oGaryo
Well-Known Member
thanks guys... I've taken the float chamber cover off and found something interesting, will post a picture up in a few mins. sounds like I need to get hold of some of this easy start whatever happens considering it being hard to start. thanks again, I'm feeling I'm getting close to the root cause now (famous last words ;-) )
omega2
Well-Known Member
DO NOT USE EASY START, your engine will get hooked on it, pour some petrol down the barrel of the carb, open the throttle wide and crank.
oliverbarke
New Member
i would not do that if it back fires bye bye boat house hair etc etc. New or recon carb, gaurantee fuel clean and getting there ok, ensure good battery and isolater connections (sometimes the starter can drawer the power away under compression from the coil etc) it should start if compression over 100 and exhaust not bunged up those engines are 1950's technology. Also interupt switches can cause stress, they are on the shift mechanism. just disconect BUT replace if it cures it.
oGaryo
Well-Known Member
here you go... tells a story doesn't it 
immediately after taking the cover off:
5 mins later after a bit of evaporation, the residue is fine granuals not sticky.
intake ducts aren't exactly clean either:
I'm currently letting the last few drops of fuel evaporate so I can blow out the fine brown particles and give the ducts a good blast too.
I've also found debri in the mesh filters, one under the fuel pump and the other in the fuel feed in to the carb.
immediately after taking the cover off:
5 mins later after a bit of evaporation, the residue is fine granuals not sticky.
intake ducts aren't exactly clean either:
I'm currently letting the last few drops of fuel evaporate so I can blow out the fine brown particles and give the ducts a good blast too.
I've also found debri in the mesh filters, one under the fuel pump and the other in the fuel feed in to the carb.
pentane
Well-Known Member
Just my 2p on this ......
When recently doing a similar thing, IE re-comissioning an older petrol boat, there were a number of issues that prevented the flippin thing from starting:-
1) gummed up carb (float, jets, accel pump)
2) duff points, both sets (quick file needed)
3) poor earth connection to the dizzy (couple of twists after marking position of course /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif)
4) aforementioned crud shifter micro-switch affair (disconnect it for time being)
5) oh yeah, perrished fuel hose
I could not believe it - don't assume that there's just one link in the chain that's bust
Tim
sorry about the spelling, red wine getting in the way..
When recently doing a similar thing, IE re-comissioning an older petrol boat, there were a number of issues that prevented the flippin thing from starting:-
1) gummed up carb (float, jets, accel pump)
2) duff points, both sets (quick file needed)
3) poor earth connection to the dizzy (couple of twists after marking position of course /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif)
4) aforementioned crud shifter micro-switch affair (disconnect it for time being)
5) oh yeah, perrished fuel hose
I could not believe it - don't assume that there's just one link in the chain that's bust
Tim
sorry about the spelling, red wine getting in the way..
oGaryo
Well-Known Member
getting awefully close to throwing the hands in the air and then inserting them in the wallet to pay someone to sort this.. carb is back on but still no joy..
have tried pouring a fair amount of new petrol down the carb intake but still will not fire up.. have rechecked for a spark at each plug and all seems good.. the only other thing I've done is take the distributor cap off to give the points a clean along with the end of the rotor, I haven't shifted the rotor position at all and just replaced the cap once I'd cleaned up the points... maybe I've got the HT leads in the wrong order when I replaced it..
The order I have the HT leads in is as follows looking from the front of the boat towards the stern..
4 3
1 2
could it be I've flooded the engine with all the cranking, pumping and manually poruing I've been doing?
starting to grasp at straws.. I'm hoping I've missed something REALLY obvious..
any futher ideas please? will re-read all the advice given in the meantime
have tried pouring a fair amount of new petrol down the carb intake but still will not fire up.. have rechecked for a spark at each plug and all seems good.. the only other thing I've done is take the distributor cap off to give the points a clean along with the end of the rotor, I haven't shifted the rotor position at all and just replaced the cap once I'd cleaned up the points... maybe I've got the HT leads in the wrong order when I replaced it..
The order I have the HT leads in is as follows looking from the front of the boat towards the stern..
4 3
1 2
could it be I've flooded the engine with all the cranking, pumping and manually poruing I've been doing?
starting to grasp at straws.. I'm hoping I've missed something REALLY obvious..
any futher ideas please? will re-read all the advice given in the meantime
oGaryo
Well-Known Member
Tim, I have to be honest but I haven't a clue about points 2 and 3.. can you have a few more sips of the good stuff and explain further pls
oGaryo
Well-Known Member
clive, I didn't take the idle or any jets out to clean them on this occasion, just hit everything with air... if I've poured about a quarter cup of fuel in the carb intake then I wonder if the jets are the problem as I'd hope I'd at least get the engine trying to fire up for a moment or two with pouring fuel in directly.. what do you reckon?
oGaryo
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Also interupt switches can cause stress, they are on the shift mechanism. just disconect BUT replace if it cures it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hi, can you describe the location of these switches, sorry, I'm embarassingly unfamiliar with the term shift mechanism.. got a big learning curve going on here to transfer my knowledge of car engines to sorting this little quandary out.
thanks
Also interupt switches can cause stress, they are on the shift mechanism. just disconect BUT replace if it cures it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hi, can you describe the location of these switches, sorry, I'm embarassingly unfamiliar with the term shift mechanism.. got a big learning curve going on here to transfer my knowledge of car engines to sorting this little quandary out.
thanks
ExcaliburII
Well-Known Member
If you're getting a spark at the plugs when cranking the engine over, the problem is not with the shift interrupter switch, so don't worry about that.
If it's the same arrangement as on the V8s, the shift interrupter switch is a fiendishly clever contraption which is brilliantly simple and effective when it works and creates no end of confusion and misery when it doesn't.
Briefly, it's a microswitch on a spring loaded plate in the linkage connecting the gear selector cable from the control lever to the cable that goes to the outdrive. When you shift into neutral, the gearbox doesn't want to come out of gear because it's designed that way (so it doesn't jump out of gear in normal running). So, as you pull on the control to shift it into neutral, the tension between the two cables moves the aforementioned spring loaded plate against the spring and operates the shift interruptor switch, whitch cuts the ignition. As soon as the engine starts to die, the gearbox jumps out of gear, the cable relaxes, the plate moves back and the switch reconnects allowing the engine to pick up again.
This all happens in much less time than it takes to describe and, in practice, the engine just "stutters" to allow the drive to disengage cleanly.
As mentioned above, it's best left alone unless it's definitely not working properly.
If it's the same arrangement as on the V8s, the shift interrupter switch is a fiendishly clever contraption which is brilliantly simple and effective when it works and creates no end of confusion and misery when it doesn't.
Briefly, it's a microswitch on a spring loaded plate in the linkage connecting the gear selector cable from the control lever to the cable that goes to the outdrive. When you shift into neutral, the gearbox doesn't want to come out of gear because it's designed that way (so it doesn't jump out of gear in normal running). So, as you pull on the control to shift it into neutral, the tension between the two cables moves the aforementioned spring loaded plate against the spring and operates the shift interruptor switch, whitch cuts the ignition. As soon as the engine starts to die, the gearbox jumps out of gear, the cable relaxes, the plate moves back and the switch reconnects allowing the engine to pick up again.
This all happens in much less time than it takes to describe and, in practice, the engine just "stutters" to allow the drive to disengage cleanly.
As mentioned above, it's best left alone unless it's definitely not working properly.
realslimshady
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The order I have the HT leads in is as follows looking from the front of the boat towards the stern..
4 3
1 2
could it be I've flooded the engine with all the cranking, pumping and manually poruing I've been doing?
starting to grasp at straws.. I'm hoping I've missed something REALLY obvious..
any futher ideas please? will re-read all the advice given in the meantime
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a merc 3.0l isn't it?
Firing order is 1-3-4-2, which makes your pic wrong
should look like
3 4
1 2
The order I have the HT leads in is as follows looking from the front of the boat towards the stern..
4 3
1 2
could it be I've flooded the engine with all the cranking, pumping and manually poruing I've been doing?
starting to grasp at straws.. I'm hoping I've missed something REALLY obvious..
any futher ideas please? will re-read all the advice given in the meantime
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a merc 3.0l isn't it?
Firing order is 1-3-4-2, which makes your pic wrong
should look like
3 4
1 2
realslimshady
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
If it is a normal straight four engine 1,4,3,2 makes no sense. 1,3,4,2 is normal although Ford Kents were 1,2,4,3 from what I remember. If it is a v4 I don't know.
[/ QUOTE ]
Gary, just re-read the details and you're ignition timing is definitely wrong-as stated prev (above) 1,3,4,2 is the only timing for an inline 4 I've ever come across.
If it is a normal straight four engine 1,4,3,2 makes no sense. 1,3,4,2 is normal although Ford Kents were 1,2,4,3 from what I remember. If it is a v4 I don't know.
[/ QUOTE ]
Gary, just re-read the details and you're ignition timing is definitely wrong-as stated prev (above) 1,3,4,2 is the only timing for an inline 4 I've ever come across.
oGaryo
Well-Known Member
sorry, wish I was wrong in the boat but it's a typo (getting late), it's connected as you've written.
pentane
Well-Known Member
'course..but if you've got a spark then points must be breaking (but not necessarily at the correct moment) and the dizzy must be earthed OK too.
When you say you've got a spark, are you actually seeing this jump the gap? IE stick a spare plug on the HT lead and hold it against the block, using as much insulating apparatus as possible (thick rubber gloves, rubber covered pliers etc - no requests please for administration of CPR)
There's sparks and there's sparks....
If you can see a big fat one, then good. If not, then suspect coil / condenser / resistor. The reason for the latter is quite a cunning solution to overcome the low voltage caused by the effort of spinnng the starter.
Possible low compression, but you've checked that. I suppose you might have put enough fuel into it to wash the bores, but you can tell 'cos the engine will spin far too easily and smoothly on the starter.
If you've got to here then I would start to suspect the timing / firing order. With the former you need to establish TDC on cylinder 1 and make sure the points open about the same time, plus the rotor arm is directing the spark to the correct HT lead.
On an older set up with a dubious history don't assume anything, you need to get back to basics and ignore timing marks - the pulley might have been changed for example.
I imagine there's loads of info on the net on simple 4 stroke diagnostics
Good luck
PS Sounds daft but it is fuel that is getting to the carb isn't it, and not water? Tank could be full of gawd knows what.
When you say you've got a spark, are you actually seeing this jump the gap? IE stick a spare plug on the HT lead and hold it against the block, using as much insulating apparatus as possible (thick rubber gloves, rubber covered pliers etc - no requests please for administration of CPR)
There's sparks and there's sparks....
If you can see a big fat one, then good. If not, then suspect coil / condenser / resistor. The reason for the latter is quite a cunning solution to overcome the low voltage caused by the effort of spinnng the starter.
Possible low compression, but you've checked that. I suppose you might have put enough fuel into it to wash the bores, but you can tell 'cos the engine will spin far too easily and smoothly on the starter.
If you've got to here then I would start to suspect the timing / firing order. With the former you need to establish TDC on cylinder 1 and make sure the points open about the same time, plus the rotor arm is directing the spark to the correct HT lead.
On an older set up with a dubious history don't assume anything, you need to get back to basics and ignore timing marks - the pulley might have been changed for example.
I imagine there's loads of info on the net on simple 4 stroke diagnostics
Good luck
PS Sounds daft but it is fuel that is getting to the carb isn't it, and not water? Tank could be full of gawd knows what.
oGaryo
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
If you're getting a spark at the plugs when cranking the engine over, the problem is not with the shift interrupter switch, so don't worry about that.
If it's the same arrangement as on the V8s, the shift interrupter switch is a fiendishly clever contraption which is brilliantly simple and effective when it works and creates no end of confusion and misery when it doesn't.
Briefly, it's a microswitch on a spring loaded plate in the linkage connecting the gear selector cable from the control lever to the cable that goes to the outdrive. When you shift into neutral, the gearbox doesn't want to come out of gear because it's designed that way (so it doesn't jump out of gear in normal running). So, as you pull on the control to shift it into neutral, the tension between the two cables moves the aforementioned spring loaded plate against the spring and operates the shift interruptor switch, whitch cuts the ignition. As soon as the engine starts to die, the gearbox jumps out of gear, the cable relaxes, the plate moves back and the switch reconnects allowing the engine to pick up again.
This all happens in much less time than it takes to describe and, in practice, the engine just "stutters" to allow the drive to disengage cleanly.
As mentioned above, it's best left alone unless it's definitely not working properly.
[/ QUOTE ]
thanks for the explanation, I disconnected the thing and tried but no joy again..
going to give it a rest for tonight, go and get some well earned rest, pray to the boat engine gods and wake up in the morning knowing they'll have fixed it for me overnight and it'll start first time when I get home from work tomorrow... /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
the one thing playing on my mind is that it was running round the sellers place, was trying to fire up when I got it home and now it doesn't want to play at all.. smacks of fuel issues but I can't get over that it wont fire with fuel poured directly in the carb intake.. do I need to put more than a quarter cup full in?
If you're getting a spark at the plugs when cranking the engine over, the problem is not with the shift interrupter switch, so don't worry about that.
If it's the same arrangement as on the V8s, the shift interrupter switch is a fiendishly clever contraption which is brilliantly simple and effective when it works and creates no end of confusion and misery when it doesn't.
Briefly, it's a microswitch on a spring loaded plate in the linkage connecting the gear selector cable from the control lever to the cable that goes to the outdrive. When you shift into neutral, the gearbox doesn't want to come out of gear because it's designed that way (so it doesn't jump out of gear in normal running). So, as you pull on the control to shift it into neutral, the tension between the two cables moves the aforementioned spring loaded plate against the spring and operates the shift interruptor switch, whitch cuts the ignition. As soon as the engine starts to die, the gearbox jumps out of gear, the cable relaxes, the plate moves back and the switch reconnects allowing the engine to pick up again.
This all happens in much less time than it takes to describe and, in practice, the engine just "stutters" to allow the drive to disengage cleanly.
As mentioned above, it's best left alone unless it's definitely not working properly.
[/ QUOTE ]
thanks for the explanation, I disconnected the thing and tried but no joy again..
going to give it a rest for tonight, go and get some well earned rest, pray to the boat engine gods and wake up in the morning knowing they'll have fixed it for me overnight and it'll start first time when I get home from work tomorrow... /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
the one thing playing on my mind is that it was running round the sellers place, was trying to fire up when I got it home and now it doesn't want to play at all.. smacks of fuel issues but I can't get over that it wont fire with fuel poured directly in the carb intake.. do I need to put more than a quarter cup full in?
realslimshady
Well-Known Member
Is the dizzy clamped up tight? If not, could have moved gradually with all the cranking and moved the timing out..
oGaryo
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
'course..but if you've got a spark then points must be breaking (but not necessarily at the correct moment) and the dizzy must be earthed OK too.
When you say you've got a spark, are you actually seeing this jump the gap? IE stick a spare plug on the HT lead and hold it against the block, using as much insulating apparatus as possible (thick rubber gloves, rubber covered pliers etc - no requests please for administration of CPR)
There's sparks and there's sparks....
If you can see a big fat one, then good. If not, then suspect coil / condenser / resistor. The reason for the latter is quite a cunning solution to overcome the low voltage caused by the effort of spinnng the starter.
Possible low compression, but you've checked that. I suppose you might have put enough fuel into it to wash the bores, but you can tell 'cos the engine will spin far too easily and smoothly on the starter.
If you've got to here then I would start to suspect the timing / firing order. With the former you need to establish TDC on cylinder 1 and make sure the points open about the same time, plus the rotor arm is directing the spark to the correct HT lead.
On an older set up with a dubious history don't assume anything, you need to get back to basics and ignore timing marks - the pulley might have been changed for example.
I imagine there's loads of info on the net on simple 4 stroke diagnostics
Good luck
PS Sounds daft but it is fuel that is getting to the carb isn't it, and not water? Tank could be full of gawd knows what.
[/ QUOTE ]
thanks for the further thoughts.. I clamped each plug by the lead against the engine block and the spark looked pretty strong.
really not sure about the timing, will check TDC etc but I'm not sure how to rotate the engine like in a car (spanner on the crackshaft).. have been given some advice in a pm but would appreciate anyone who knows a good way of turning the negine manually to check tdc with a screwdriver inserted in the plug hole to feel for the piston rising.
smells like fuel coming through and what I put in the carb was defintiely new fuel.
my head hurts /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
'course..but if you've got a spark then points must be breaking (but not necessarily at the correct moment) and the dizzy must be earthed OK too.
When you say you've got a spark, are you actually seeing this jump the gap? IE stick a spare plug on the HT lead and hold it against the block, using as much insulating apparatus as possible (thick rubber gloves, rubber covered pliers etc - no requests please for administration of CPR)
There's sparks and there's sparks....
If you can see a big fat one, then good. If not, then suspect coil / condenser / resistor. The reason for the latter is quite a cunning solution to overcome the low voltage caused by the effort of spinnng the starter.
Possible low compression, but you've checked that. I suppose you might have put enough fuel into it to wash the bores, but you can tell 'cos the engine will spin far too easily and smoothly on the starter.
If you've got to here then I would start to suspect the timing / firing order. With the former you need to establish TDC on cylinder 1 and make sure the points open about the same time, plus the rotor arm is directing the spark to the correct HT lead.
On an older set up with a dubious history don't assume anything, you need to get back to basics and ignore timing marks - the pulley might have been changed for example.
I imagine there's loads of info on the net on simple 4 stroke diagnostics
Good luck
PS Sounds daft but it is fuel that is getting to the carb isn't it, and not water? Tank could be full of gawd knows what.
[/ QUOTE ]
thanks for the further thoughts.. I clamped each plug by the lead against the engine block and the spark looked pretty strong.
really not sure about the timing, will check TDC etc but I'm not sure how to rotate the engine like in a car (spanner on the crackshaft).. have been given some advice in a pm but would appreciate anyone who knows a good way of turning the negine manually to check tdc with a screwdriver inserted in the plug hole to feel for the piston rising.
smells like fuel coming through and what I put in the carb was defintiely new fuel.
my head hurts /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
oGaryo
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Is the dizzy clamped up tight? If not, could have moved gradually with all the cranking and moved the timing out..
[/ QUOTE ]
that's food for thought, I'll check that tomorrow.. thanks
Is the dizzy clamped up tight? If not, could have moved gradually with all the cranking and moved the timing out..
[/ QUOTE ]
that's food for thought, I'll check that tomorrow.. thanks
ExcaliburII
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
do I need to put more than a quarter cup full in?
[/ QUOTE ]
Probably not, I would think that's enough to flood it, but it should try and start as it weakens off if you've got the throttle wide open.
Personally, I would prefer a squirt of easy start (or similar) rather than pouring in liquid petrol. Then, if it does backfire, you will get a bit of a fireball and it will then blow itself out. If it backfires with a load of liquid petrol in the manifold, it may keep going for long enough to set fire to something else (carburettor/you/etc).
do I need to put more than a quarter cup full in?
[/ QUOTE ]
Probably not, I would think that's enough to flood it, but it should try and start as it weakens off if you've got the throttle wide open.
Personally, I would prefer a squirt of easy start (or similar) rather than pouring in liquid petrol. Then, if it does backfire, you will get a bit of a fireball and it will then blow itself out. If it backfires with a load of liquid petrol in the manifold, it may keep going for long enough to set fire to something else (carburettor/you/etc).