Engine Survey vs. Service on a used boat purchase

[Granthsmith]

I'm looking to get a twin Volvo AD41P powered boat that is 12 years old and whose engines have done 800hrs. Before buying, I am definitiely getting a survey done and having a sea trial however I am not sure what to do regarding the engines & outdrives. They were serviced last season and are due for another service now. I don't want to have to pay for an engine survey now as part of the purchase and if I get the boat then have to pay for a service as well, so I was wondering about proposing to the vendor getting the engines serviced instead of a survey. Is this a sensible move or is an engine survey all about how the engines run at sea?

 

[ccscott49]

How about getting an oil sample from each engine analysed, tells you a lot about the engines, take the samples before service, for obvious reasons.

 

[poltergeist]

When I had a full survey carried out last year, I was quoted £25 per engine for oil analysis - not bad considering what it can show up.

 

[Bandit]

I dont follow your logic?

I would want a boat survey and then an engine and drive survey now with a seatrial and to undertake an oil lab test.

Then if I bought the boat I would then want a full engine and drive service as well as remedial work attended to that the engine survey had highlighted.

They are different animals.

An engine survey by a good preferably independant manufacturers dealer will show you much more and should save you in the long run.

The AD41P is however a good pretty bullet proof engine if it has been well looked after and not abused.

In this competetive market whether you squeeze the vendor by getting him to fund the service is another matter.

 

[gjgm]

I think the problem might be in getting a solid agreement with the seller; after all, checking the boat out is your issue, not his. If you have a survey and find something wrong, you can discuss and if not resolve it with the seller, you walk away with just the survey costs as your loss. Seems to me that if you go your route, there is a risk that you undertake more expense, without a firm undertaking of how to resolve if there are problems- he may/may not agree with you.I m not sure what his upside is here, to be fair to him.
Still, there are some good Volvo guys about here; I dont see anything wrong in you deciding on your own to go the full service route independently, accepting that if there are problems, you understand that you are in a survey-only situation with the seller. So, you take a bit more financial risk one way, with a lower overall cost if things are OK. You might be able to get one of the service engineers to work on a proceed until problems scenario.. ie, take the legs off, and stop if they are falling to bits! Then discuss with the seller at that point.
So, I think its fine to go your route, as long as you dont expect the seller to share your costs.. thats your risk, surely.
BTW, oil analysis isnt going to show anything if the oil is almost new.

EDIT.. just thinking about Deleted User's point.. I guess the risk in my latter suggestion is that if you find a problem, and stop to discuss with the seller, and he wont play ball, he might well demand you put it all together again (unfixed).
On balance with a younger boat I would consider this idea, but at the age of these engines, there seems less upside and more downside to not going survey first route. But I would make sure you and the engineer agree what constitutues an engine survey. Not on engines, but on the boat, a bit like Hurricane, I ve had surveys that really could have been conducted from 5 miles away. I ve also had some very good ones, so if you will be south coast, I have some recommendations. if it helps

 

[DAKA]

I'm looking to get a twin Volvo AD41P powered boat that is 12 years old and whose engines have done 800hrs. Before buying, I am definitiely getting a survey done and having a sea trial however I am not sure what to do regarding the engines & outdrives. They were serviced last season and are due for another service now. I don't want to have to pay for an engine survey now as part of the purchase and if I get the boat then have to pay for a service as well, so I was wondering about proposing to the vendor getting the engines serviced instead of a survey. Is this a sensible move or is an engine survey all about how the engines run at sea?

This is what I did a number of years ago.
It makes good sense for both of you.

I paid for an engine service on a boat I was about to buy, it was cheaper than an engine survey.
It worked well for me.

Of course there could still be an underlying issue that a service does not find but equally a survey has so many clauses in then chances are they would not be liable anyway.

There is also the danger that the boat sells to someone else and benefits from your service.

 

[Mymobo]

I am in the process of buying, I am having a survey done and oil analysis. The engine and leg need a service but I would rather get my engineer todo it when I get her back to my home berth as I trust his work and it is less hassel.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I'm looking to get a twin Volvo AD41P powered boat that is 12 years old and whose engines have done 800hrs. Before buying, I am definitiely getting a survey done and having a sea trial however I am not sure what to do regarding the engines & outdrives. They were serviced last season and are due for another service now. I don't want to have to pay for an engine survey now as part of the purchase and if I get the boat then have to pay for a service as well, so I was wondering about proposing to the vendor getting the engines serviced instead of a survey. Is this a sensible move or is an engine survey all about how the engines run at sea?

I cannot see the logic of that. If you pay for a service and the service reveals some horrific problems and you decide not to purchase the boat, then the vendor gets a service for free. In any case, a service will not include an oil analysis or compression test on the engines. IMHO, you should just bite the bullet and get a proper engine/drive survey done. Without doubt, the survey will throw up some problems (quite likely with sterndrives of this age) which you can then use to reduce the purchase price of the boat, probably saving you far more than the cost of the survey. Even if the survey comes up 100% clean, you can sleep easy knowing that the engine/drives are good for a few seasons more.
One point on the oil analysis. An oil analysis measures the level of certain contaminants in the oil and those levels depend on the number of hours the engines have run and the time period since the last oil change so make sure that the surveyor knows this info before he sends the oil samples for analysis. There is no point in doing an oil analysis if the oil has been in the engines for less than 30 running hours or so

 

[Hurricane]

I agree with Deleted User BUT.....
Be very careful who you select to do the survey.
I once chose a very reputable Volvo company to do a survey for me.
Charged me an arm and a leg and and the report wasn't worth the paper it was photocopied on.

No oil analysis done and I was left wondering.

As it happened, the engines turned out fine but I never used that company ever again.

When we sold the boat, however, the new owner commisioned a private survey (from someone not unknown to these forums) who did a much more thorough survey for the new owner. I would have been much happier if I'd used him when we bought the boat.

Something worth considering - when we were selling, the engineer asked if he could see the engines under full load which, of course, means a run out so I'd suggest that its more important to have the engineer on board during a sea trial than to do a service.

 

[Morpheous]

I ummed and ah'd about this last year buying White Mischief. I knew a service was required biy optd for the separate engine survey too. It was my first mobo purchase and didn't really know what to look for. Although the engines themselves were mostly fine there is a lot of peropheral stuff that was picked up - like various pumps leaking etc etc. I saved more than the cost of the survey easily. I bought the boat knowing it needed servicing but negotiated with the seller on the non service items. Saved myself over 1k and also had a much better idea of the condition of all things mechanical. I suspect time the hull survey will be the optional bit but I will always do an engine survey. (Ok maybe not but the engine survey was more worthwhile)

 

[mont]

FWIW
Be very careful about using the terms 'service' & 'survey' with absolute trust.
Different companies / 'engineers' / fitters etc work to very different criteria and standards.
I trusted and could not believe subsequent to survey and then two 'major' open wallet £££'s VP services as to what was not done, faults / time spent items not reported & just plain missed out - very very disappointing.
AD41 (& dpa if looked after) though will provide good service and have a very good reputation.
Age will mean that a lot of other items will be ready for overhaul / going time spent by now though and dont forget all the various 'house' items as well as mechanicals !.

 

[volvopaul]

FWIW
Be very careful about using the terms 'service' & 'survey' with absolute trust.
Different companies / 'engineers' / fitters etc work to very different criteria and standards.
I trusted and could not believe subsequent to survey and then two 'major' open wallet £££'s VP services as to what was not done, faults / time spent items not reported & just plain missed out - very very disappointing.
AD41 (& dpa if looked after) though will provide good service and have a very good reputation.
Age will mean that a lot of other items will be ready for overhaul / going time spent by now though and dont forget all the various 'house' items as well as mechanicals !.

Take it your talking about JB then?

 

[Latestarter1]

Engine surveys

Just goes to show how markets are totally different.

In the U.S. engine surveys are a matter of course, and totally separate from the hull survey. The vessel maintainence history file has to be totally complete or vessel is seriously marked down in price, checking out the engine history file is normally part of the surveyors role. However due to lack of regulation the quality of engine surveys’ varies enormously. The best surveyors tend to specialise in just one make of motor, also you have to remember that there is little place in the market for outdrives.

Why is engine survey so important? There are a large percentage of re-powered vessels in the market place, either replacement of gasoline or Detroit strokers to diesels. Generally engineering is to a very good standard, however there can be exceptions.

A good surveyor will require sea trail, with proper dock pre flight checking of gear and throttle adjustment/checking of engine high idle and calibration of electronic gauges, pictures of the whole installation with particular attention to condition of dry risers and the rest of the exhaust system as well as the design and condition of the fuel system.

Sea trials will normally be carried out with half tanks with an absolute requirement to make rated engine speed to ensure motors are not overloaded. Decent surveyors will probably hook up Magnahelic gauge on the exhaust to measure back pressure, check fuel restriction and engine room Delta T. Sadly because of gasoline engine culture some surveyors are still messing with compression checks, however most now have religion and perform blow by check.

One off oil samples, and compression checks are a pet hates of mine, why because they tend to ask more questions than answers and the engine blow by test is the engine manufacturers own measure of engine health, and quirky oil sample results usually end up with all manner of head scratching. Oil sampling is a process not a snap shot; I have oversight of almost 200 diesel engined gen sets operating in hospital and security sensitive sites. We run REGULAR oil sampling to monitor condition of engines and lube TBN Vs TAN all part of a disciplined maintainence regime. No discipline in the one shot wonder method.


I have done a few surveys here and discovered plenty of worm cans; 1970’s express cruiser which was shy of rated engine rpm by 400 rpm. Was propped correctly, until major internal re-fit added well over a tonne to the displacement.

A more modern vessel whose owner was so proud when he fitted his new Separ filters, however as the Separs were expensive he was careful to only size for the filters for the power of the engine, forgetting to take account total fuel flow by including return fuel. Our man also put 3/8 fitting on filter inlet and ½ on the outlet, however he can be excused as a certain builder is capable of such silly tricks on brand new vessels.

The addition of a bathing platform which reduced the critical top of the dry riser to water line distance with full water tanks to the point where water could enter the turbo.

Lousy exhaust and fuel systems, go to a boat show and actually pay good money to see how some builders here proudly exhibit their poor designs in public.