crazy4557
Well-Known Member
I want to get the engine oil analysed for both my Yanmar diesel engines, can anyone point me in the direction of a company that are not too expensive but also quite quick ?
Engine oil analysis...any recommendations?
- Thread starter crazy4557
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Kipper
Well-Known Member
Could we ask my you need to do this?
Sounds interesting!
Sounds interesting!
David_J
Well-Known Member
I have no hands on experience of this company but (to declare a very distant connection) I am on the council of the Institution of Diesel and Gas Turbine Engineers and the following company have just started advertising with us.
Spectro
spectro-oil.com or 01256 704000 Trevor Jackson
I think the routine is you buy a 100ml sample bottle for around £40 which also includes the cost of them carrying out the analysis. They will even sell you a pump to draw the sample for around £20!!!
Another company that I heard of from a friend but again have no experience of is AL Control Laboratories 01492 574 750 in Conwy I think.
There are loads of laboratories that do this but Spectro seem to have been around quite a while. Obviously you need to take care when drawing the sample so it is really representative and not taking sludge out of the bottom! maybe these companies have guidelines to help.
I am also in TWells area.
Spectro
spectro-oil.com or 01256 704000 Trevor Jackson
I think the routine is you buy a 100ml sample bottle for around £40 which also includes the cost of them carrying out the analysis. They will even sell you a pump to draw the sample for around £20!!!
Another company that I heard of from a friend but again have no experience of is AL Control Laboratories 01492 574 750 in Conwy I think.
There are loads of laboratories that do this but Spectro seem to have been around quite a while. Obviously you need to take care when drawing the sample so it is really representative and not taking sludge out of the bottom! maybe these companies have guidelines to help.
I am also in TWells area.
crazy4557
Well-Known Member
I have Yanmar 6LP 315hp diesels in my Sealine S41. Now I bought this boat knowing the issues in America and the lawsuit brought against Yanmar following many failures due to valves dropping onto pistons, which don't bode well for engine longevity!! There was an upgrade retrofitted which cured the problem and only a certain batch were affected.
The symptons of this is a loud tappety noise once you have come off the throttles and slowing right down.
My boat has just started this and it's happened on 3 occasions during a return trip from the West Country. I have checked the engines and they have the uprated valve guides and are not within the affected engins serial number range....but I still have this tappet noise which is supposedly the precursor to a valve failure.
I did a sea trial with a Yanmar agent today and sod's law the engines behaved perfectly....I did warm them up to full temperature. So my next job is to see what the oil can tell me hence my request for a recommended firm....
It's an interesting problem that could get expensive if I don't get to sort it beforehand!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
The symptons of this is a loud tappety noise once you have come off the throttles and slowing right down.
My boat has just started this and it's happened on 3 occasions during a return trip from the West Country. I have checked the engines and they have the uprated valve guides and are not within the affected engins serial number range....but I still have this tappet noise which is supposedly the precursor to a valve failure.
I did a sea trial with a Yanmar agent today and sod's law the engines behaved perfectly....I did warm them up to full temperature. So my next job is to see what the oil can tell me hence my request for a recommended firm....
It's an interesting problem that could get expensive if I don't get to sort it beforehand!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
VicS
Well-Known Member
Just what information do you expect an oil analysis to give ?
What tests will you ask to be carried out that might give any indication of impending valve failure?
What was the mechanism of the valve failure?
I doubt if oil analysis will tell you anything useful but I'd be interested to learn the details if I'm wrong.
What tests will you ask to be carried out that might give any indication of impending valve failure?
What was the mechanism of the valve failure?
I doubt if oil analysis will tell you anything useful but I'd be interested to learn the details if I'm wrong.
crazy4557
Well-Known Member
I don't have any other tests to try...the engines run perfectly well but an oil analysis might throw up something...must be better than doing nothing!
As I'm told the tappety noise is the valve being hit by the piston and being pushed back as it sticks in the guide.
As I'm told the tappety noise is the valve being hit by the piston and being pushed back as it sticks in the guide.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Andy,
I put a call into an old pal at Mack Boring who are the U.S. Yanmar guys.
#1 I have their word that they have not seen a single failure since introduction of modified valve gudes.
#2 You have not mentioned the number of hours on your motors. Before modifications we used to get first signs of tapping around 900 Hs. Over this you were at risk.
#3 Pleased that Barrus have now fessed up to the problem. Exactly two years ago I saw an angling boat at Seawork which I did not think met the Yanmar LP duty cycle guidelines. I asked them about the duty cycle and the valve guide issue.
Result. Total denial.
On the subject of oil analysis I suspect it will add little value.
One off samples are of no great value, you need regular samples to start trending elements in the oil. The real value of oil sampling is monitoring TAN Vs TBN in high duty applications for example if you have a big machine working in a quarry on a demanding duty cycle and know when to predict shut down for maintainence. When a big machine has an overhead of £300/Hr you need to take if off line at optimal time.
Oil snapshots will raise more questions than provide answers, particularly with the issue you raise, not provide an early warning.
Rest easy and enjoy your boat.
I put a call into an old pal at Mack Boring who are the U.S. Yanmar guys.
#1 I have their word that they have not seen a single failure since introduction of modified valve gudes.
#2 You have not mentioned the number of hours on your motors. Before modifications we used to get first signs of tapping around 900 Hs. Over this you were at risk.
#3 Pleased that Barrus have now fessed up to the problem. Exactly two years ago I saw an angling boat at Seawork which I did not think met the Yanmar LP duty cycle guidelines. I asked them about the duty cycle and the valve guide issue.
Result. Total denial.
On the subject of oil analysis I suspect it will add little value.
One off samples are of no great value, you need regular samples to start trending elements in the oil. The real value of oil sampling is monitoring TAN Vs TBN in high duty applications for example if you have a big machine working in a quarry on a demanding duty cycle and know when to predict shut down for maintainence. When a big machine has an overhead of £300/Hr you need to take if off line at optimal time.
Oil snapshots will raise more questions than provide answers, particularly with the issue you raise, not provide an early warning.
Rest easy and enjoy your boat.
misterg
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Another company that I heard of from a friend but again have no experience of is AL Control Laboratories 01492 574 750 in Conwy I think
[/ QUOTE ]
These have also be around a long time - used to be Robertsons Research, then Wear Check. They actually do the analysis (many oil analysis companies are only 'brokers' for the real labs). They (used to be ??) the lab that actually did JCB & Caterpillar's 'in-house' oil analysis. SWMBO worked there many, many moons ago.
I agree that a one-off analysis will tell you little, but if I had a mobo with big, horribly expensive engines, I'd seriously consider setting up a testing regime with the likes of Alcontrol.
Andy
Another company that I heard of from a friend but again have no experience of is AL Control Laboratories 01492 574 750 in Conwy I think
[/ QUOTE ]
These have also be around a long time - used to be Robertsons Research, then Wear Check. They actually do the analysis (many oil analysis companies are only 'brokers' for the real labs). They (used to be ??) the lab that actually did JCB & Caterpillar's 'in-house' oil analysis. SWMBO worked there many, many moons ago.
I agree that a one-off analysis will tell you little, but if I had a mobo with big, horribly expensive engines, I'd seriously consider setting up a testing regime with the likes of Alcontrol.
Andy
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Andy,
Apologies fingers faster than brain, I should have said valve stem oil seals not guides..
Apologies fingers faster than brain, I should have said valve stem oil seals not guides..
crazy4557
Well-Known Member
Only 350 hours so far so way below the 900+ that I had also heard about!
Take your point about the analysis so I'll just keep running them until the problem really rears up!
Take your point about the analysis so I'll just keep running them until the problem really rears up!
rafiki_
Well-Known Member
If you are worried about piston clearance, then you could try a borescope. On a DI engine, you would extract the injector, and use the hole to get the borescope in. I am not familiar with your engines, so don't know if access to the cylinder is possible. I would be surprised that if pistons are hitting valves that this is not terminal as soon as it occurs, and would not come and go! A tappetty type noise is more likely to be the injectors.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
You need to know the background.
This is a known problem which cost Yanmar a few zillion bucks.
Only related to 4 valve Toyota base Yanmar LP's, not the lower rated 2 valve motor.
The history was that once past 900 hrs the valve stem oil seals became hard, leading to the valves not snapping shut under spring tension, the valves were just a little slow close and the piston would just give the mushroom a tiny little kiss. Hence the ticking noise.
Eventually the valve who actually did not like being kissed by the piston said enough is enough and let go at the friction weld where the stem joins the mushroom. Like many cases of unrequieted love it ended in tears. They even involved Mr turbo as well by making him injest peices of debris from the fight.
Yanmar America kept a tough line saying 'indeterminate failure' sorry nothing to do with us.
Then matters became hot when four members of the U.S. Coast Guard in a Willard RIB of the coast Alaska when their Yanmar LP ate a valve. Crewmen nearly died.
Boatowners in the U.S. are real organised and following the Coast Guard incident owners of Yanmar LP's got up a Class Action Lawsuit.
EVERY LP owner was contacted and offered a fix of modified valve stem oil seals if their engine was in the effected # range. Plus an extended policy coverage for motors.
Once Yanamar America had their back to the wall they did a good job sorting out pissed boat owners.
Barrus were still in denial even when the U.S. market was in turmoil over the problem. The LP is a good motor and I am assured that the service fix is robust.
This owner is doing the right thing by giving Barrus a clear indication that he knows about the problem and 'indeterminate failure' due to engine hours, will not wash if he has a problem.
This is a known problem which cost Yanmar a few zillion bucks.
Only related to 4 valve Toyota base Yanmar LP's, not the lower rated 2 valve motor.
The history was that once past 900 hrs the valve stem oil seals became hard, leading to the valves not snapping shut under spring tension, the valves were just a little slow close and the piston would just give the mushroom a tiny little kiss. Hence the ticking noise.
Eventually the valve who actually did not like being kissed by the piston said enough is enough and let go at the friction weld where the stem joins the mushroom. Like many cases of unrequieted love it ended in tears. They even involved Mr turbo as well by making him injest peices of debris from the fight.
Yanmar America kept a tough line saying 'indeterminate failure' sorry nothing to do with us.
Then matters became hot when four members of the U.S. Coast Guard in a Willard RIB of the coast Alaska when their Yanmar LP ate a valve. Crewmen nearly died.
Boatowners in the U.S. are real organised and following the Coast Guard incident owners of Yanmar LP's got up a Class Action Lawsuit.
EVERY LP owner was contacted and offered a fix of modified valve stem oil seals if their engine was in the effected # range. Plus an extended policy coverage for motors.
Once Yanamar America had their back to the wall they did a good job sorting out pissed boat owners.
Barrus were still in denial even when the U.S. market was in turmoil over the problem. The LP is a good motor and I am assured that the service fix is robust.
This owner is doing the right thing by giving Barrus a clear indication that he knows about the problem and 'indeterminate failure' due to engine hours, will not wash if he has a problem.
JoeQ
Well-Known Member
Finning do a kit for £13 per test that includes everything you need. Instructions, syringe, tube and sample bottle. Even a prepaid envelope. Price includes the test.
VicS
Well-Known Member
An oil test is not going to detect hardened valve stem oil seals nor I would think a piston "kissing" a valve.
Once the valve has broken, smashed through the crown of the piston, wrecked the cylinder head and demolished the turbocharger then particles of metal in the oil would suggest this may have happened but by then there will be more obvious symptoms!
Once the valve has broken, smashed through the crown of the piston, wrecked the cylinder head and demolished the turbocharger then particles of metal in the oil would suggest this may have happened but by then there will be more obvious symptoms!
