Engine Development

[cryan]

Gents,
I'm currently looking into the marinisation of the Ford Duratorq (Puma) range. Probably starting with the 2.2 litre or 3.2 litre version. This would give power outputs of 150hp ish or 200hp ish. The reasoning behind this is to put a well built British engine on the market with good fuel economy and robustness and easy access to parts and consumables. It is also relatively compact which suits the leisure and light commercial market.
My question to your esteemed selves is what features do you class as the most important when investing in an engine for your boat?

Would you place fuel economy over power output? or purchase price over country of origin? etc etc.
I would really appreciate your thoughts and opinions.

 

[Whitelighter]

Gents,
I'm currently looking into the marinisation of the Ford Duratorq (Puma) range. Probably starting with the 2.2 litre or 3.2 litre version. This would give power outputs of 150hp ish or 200hp ish. The reasoning behind this is to put a well built British engine on the market with good fuel economy and robustness and easy access to parts and consumables. It is also relatively compact which suits the leisure and light commercial market.
My question to your esteemed selves is what features do you class as the most important when investing in an engine for your boat?

Would you place fuel economy over power output? or purchase price over country of origin? etc etc.
I would really appreciate your thoughts and opinions.

Reletively few people purchase engines directly.

The most important thing is, does the manufcturer of the boat supply with it fitted.

After that its:

Ease/cost of servicing
Durability
After sales support

 

[cryan]

Reletively few people purchase engines directly.

The most important thing is, does the manufcturer of the boat supply with it fitted.

After that its:

Ease/cost of servicing
Durability
After sales support

Thanks for the reply.
Ease and cost of servicing is one of the plus points of these engines as they are so widely used by several car manufacturers. Obviously after sales goes without saying.

 

[aquapower]

Gents,
I'm currently looking into the marinisation of the Ford Duratorq (Puma) range. Probably starting with the 2.2 litre or 3.2 litre version. This would give power outputs of 150hp ish or 200hp ish. The reasoning behind this is to put a well built British engine on the market with good fuel economy and robustness and easy access to parts and consumables. It is also relatively compact which suits the leisure and light commercial market.
My question to your esteemed selves is what features do you class as the most important when investing in an engine for your boat?

Would you place fuel economy over power output? or purchase price over country of origin? etc etc.
I would really appreciate your thoughts and opinions.

If you are looking at the re power market then price will have to be right, also if you could provide appropriate kit to attach to stern drives.

 

[Latestarter1]

Gents,
I'm currently looking into the marinisation of the Ford Duratorq (Puma) range. Probably starting with the 2.2 litre or 3.2 litre version. This would give power outputs of 150hp ish or 200hp ish. The reasoning behind this is to put a well built British engine on the market with good fuel economy and robustness and easy access to parts and consumables. It is also relatively compact which suits the leisure and light commercial market.
My question to your esteemed selves is what features do you class as the most important when investing in an engine for your boat?

Would you place fuel economy over power output? or purchase price over country of origin? etc etc.
I would really appreciate your thoughts and opinions.

Lancing Marine do/did marinisation of the mechanical Puma intended for non emissions regulated markets. Not sure if this version still in production, full authority electronic versions as for as I know not sold by Ford Power Products, also automotive Euro 6 engines have huge divergence over marine legislation.

You have obviously done your homework.

Good luck.

 

[ulyden]

I think Lancingmarine already are selling these engines. I have a friend that have one of these in his 20ft boat. The engine is realy simple and reliable. How durable it is is hard to tell. Engine is only 7 years. I'm now talking about the VP37 version. The engine with (delphi?) CR are troubling a lot!

I think a lot of people like the simplicity of these diesel engines. The power is limited but having no electronics waste gate or timing belt they are really easy to repair and maintain. If base engine fails there are thousands of them around.

I don't know if they are up to any emission limits if they are sold as pure leisure engines in Europe. Should not be any problem to get them below IMO Tier 2 level.

 

[janglesea]

For marine use a diesel needs some characteristics not always given much importance in a road vehicle. If I were looking for the ideal engine it would have to have:

Torque, torque and more torque
Simplicity
Robustness i.e. be able to cope with abuse such as an unexpected overheat due to raw water supply blockage
Long service interval
Cheap spares and service parts
High but not extreme power to weight ratio
Gear or chain driven camshaft
Non-wastegated, non-electronic turbocharger - if a turbocharger is needed at all
Low profile

Some of these are mutually exclusive but it is the marine engineer's job to come up with a suitable compromise. I have not studied the specs. of the engine the OP is considering but 200HP from 3.2 litres seems in line with current power to displacement ratios, even if I personally find that rather on the high side.

 

[cryan]

Thanks for the feedback guys,
I think we can address most if not all the issues you all raise. Its always good to get views from guys like yourself who use and live with marine engines.

 

[rafiki_]

The puma engine used in the LR Defender has a fantastic torque curve, and would be quite suitable for marine use.

 

[cryan]

The puma engine used in the LR Defender has a fantastic torque curve, and would be quite suitable for marine use.

It is also used in the new Ford Ranger which by all accounts has some serious pulling power.

 

[aquapower]

The puma engine used in the LR Defender has a fantastic torque curve, and would be quite suitable for marine use.

I have one and agree its got loads of torque (360nm) and big improvement on previous engines used, its reasonably economical too.

 

[Latestarter1]

Not sure I understand obsession with timing chains and absolute torque numbers.

The earlier version of Puma is noted for a poor chain tensioner design leading to jumping a tooth either at WOT or on shut down, piston kisses valve which in turn shoves cam upwards smashes cam carrier which is integral with head. 2.2 Puma has vastly improved tensioner design, however a modern cam belt set up is often superior to poor chain designs e.g. certain Mercedes gasoline and Nissan engines are glaring examples.

Going back to the old adage 'props move boats not engines' propellers require Hp, in a marine engine it is the shape of the torque curve which is important for a planing vessel not ABSOLUTE #'s.

Checked specs 2.2 Puma is Euro 5, highly complex engine with EGR and DPF Ripping off forgoing as well as MAF sensor will require serous work on ECU tuning and remapping. Engines if available from Ford likely to be in the region of £6K before you tear apart and negate warranty. Are you sure you want to stand 100% of the warranty risk?

Also are you certain that a Euro 5 automotive base motor is the correct starting point, Yanmar BMW automotive marinisation was done by Steyr who are a competent bunch and they screwed up big time costing 1000's of $$ and VP D3 has at best a colorful reputation.

Hyundai Seasall already do a 2.2 170 and 250 V6 and Nanni are selling new VM engines in that power node are you sure that you want to enter the fray?? The 2.2 Hyundai is around £13,500 inclusive of VAT and looks nice marinisation, if engine costs you £6K before you even think about turning into a marine engine and standing 100% of warranty I would urge you to think again unless you have real deep pockets.

Remember new boat market will be closed to you unless you certify to RCD and RCD2 is not that that far off and you will face doing it all over again.

Forgive me but I may be too old to get my head around you businesses plan,

 

[oldgit]

The downsides of ex automotive engines ?

On totally non technical note.An ex forumite did a diesel conversion on a largish Broom a few years ago using a highly recommended ultra reliable automotive engine.
The problem was that the engine felt to be revving its rocks off at low speeds despite some interesting prop/gearbox work.
The boat engine sounded very busy even when the boat was moving with the throttles fully closed.
On my Perkins tickover is around a relaxed 600-650.This conversion was doing around 900-1000.
Not a very relaxing situation but suppose you would get used to it,but even better to use a low revving lump in the first place ?

 

[aquapower]

Nanni are also using a 170 hp Hyundai engine, but its a 1991cc and not the 2.2

 

[Keith-i]

It would have to be price first. There are a number of CR modern diesel engines out there that have been marinised. If you can match their ease and cost of servicing then the only thing to beat tem on is price. The Hyundai Seasall and Cummins Tdi (was VW Marine) are a couple of examples of modern lightweight high revving high torque motors.

 

[ontheplane]

I wouldn't buy anything other other than Volvo / Mercruiser unless there was a proper price advantage! Given most marinas can service these two and boat resale this gives them a massive advantage.

If you can beat them at that, you are up against the petrol re-power. A 4.3mpi engine can be bought for about £3k - so would it be worth paying £10,000 to repower with a diesel give the small price difference now between marine petrol and diesel price.

I have looked at boats with busted motors thinking "oh, I could re-power with a diesel" - but it really doesn't work - a small 20-25' boat with a busted engine might cost me £5000 - put a new 4.3mpi in it and the boat owes you £8k ish...... Sellable at that kind of money when you want to move on. But spend £13k on the engine and you have a boat worth 9 or 10k that owes you £20k.... never worth it.

If you could find a way to do the motor for £5-6k then makes sense - otherwise not

 

[cryan]

I wouldn't buy anything other other than Volvo / Mercruiser unless there was a proper price advantage! Given most marinas can service these two and boat resale this gives them a massive advantage.

If you can beat them at that, you are up against the petrol re-power. A 4.3mpi engine can be bought for about £3k - so would it be worth paying £10,000 to repower with a diesel give the small price difference now between marine petrol and diesel price.

I have looked at boats with busted motors thinking "oh, I could re-power with a diesel" - but it really doesn't work - a small 20-25' boat with a busted engine might cost me £5000 - put a new 4.3mpi in it and the boat owes you £8k ish...... Sellable at that kind of money when you want to move on. But spend £13k on the engine and you have a boat worth 9 or 10k that owes you £20k.... never worth it.

If you could find a way to do the motor for £5-6k then makes sense - otherwise not

Petrol and Diesel may be similar in price if your paying tax on the fuel but diesel engines use a lit less fuel for the output.
I would not expect someone to re-engine a £2k boat with a new engine of this power output as obviously the engine will not be as cost effective although of course a boat with no engine is pretty much worthless.
Brand loyalty is your choice of course but remember very few of the base engines of those brands are sourced in-house so you have to ask yourself if that loyalty is really just to green paint? The engine we're looking at is built in the UK, would be marinised in the UK and even if not buying parts from us you could find a source for all the base engine parts in just about every town in the UK, we could paint it green if you preferred? after sales support will be no problem.

 

[Chris_d]

Petrol and Diesel may be similar in price if your paying tax on the fuel but diesel engines use a lit less fuel for the output.
I would not expect someone to re-engine a £2k boat with a new engine of this power output as obviously the engine will not be as cost effective although of course a boat with no engine is pretty much worthless.
Brand loyalty is your choice of course but remember very few of the base engines of those brands are sourced in-house so you have to ask yourself if that loyalty is really just to green paint? The engine we're looking at is built in the UK, would be marinised in the UK and even if not buying parts from us you could find a source for all the base engine parts in just about every town in the UK, we could paint it green if you preferred? after sales support will be no problem.

Sorry to be negative but just my take on this, I would never buy a boat with such an engine either. Its not the base engine that matters its all the marinising bits hanging off it that count for after sales and support, and thinking 5-10 years down the line if your bits are not available all over the country the boat will be worthless. Even well resourced companies like BMW and VW have tried to succeed in the marine market but failed, much as I hate the green monopoly they are committed to the market. I think the best you can hope for is the cheap re-powering market for low value craft similar to what Lancing Marine have done, but it has to be very cheap.

 

[cryan]

Sorry to be negative but just my take on this, I would never buy a boat with such an engine either. Its not the base engine that matters its all the marinising bits hanging off it that count for after sales and support, and thinking 5-10 years down the line if your bits are not available all over the country the boat will be worthless. Even well resourced companies like BMW and VW have tried to succeed in the marine market but failed, much as I hate the green monopoly they are committed to the market. I think the best you can hope for is the cheap re-powering market for low value craft similar to what Lancing Marine have done, but it has to be very cheap.

No need to apologise. All comments are welcome.We need to know what the market thinks.
Putting aside that it's me for a moment, If say Volvo Penta or Mercruiser were to bring the Ford Puma (Duratorq, Land Rover TD4, Etc) based engine to the market would this be a product that you would be interested in given its good power to weight ratio, fuel consumption and robustness?

 

[Chris_d]

No need to apologise. All comments are welcome.We need to know what the market thinks.
Putting aside that it's me for a moment, If say Volvo Penta or Mercruiser were to bring the Ford Puma (Duratorq, Land Rover TD4, Etc) based engine to the market would this be a product that you would be interested in given its good power to weight ratio, fuel consumption and robustness?

Short answer no, marinised automotive engines rarely work, look at the Volvo D3 disaster, the Mercruiser/Isuzu 1.7 turbo, VW V6's etc... the list goes on. The best marine engines out there are all made for the marine market only, Volvo AD's, KAD's, TAMD's, D4, D6 etc.... an exception is the Japs using the old 4.2 Toyota motor but thats a big old block and hardly a chainsaw motor as Latestarter would put it.