Engine Arguments

[boatone]

Theres a lot of angst floating around at the moment about marine engines and particularly those from the jolly green giant. Reliability and cost of spares/servicing are the big issues but are we really seeing the big issue here?
Almost all the marine inboards I am aware of are derived from original land based (generally automotive) blocks. They are then 'marinised' to meet the needs of boat useage which usually means changes to cooling circuitry, anodes, fuel supply system, gear box and electrics but not usually (as far as I know) the basic engine block. The whole shebang is then dropped into a boat, often into a space that is totally inadequate for subsequent service access. My P32 has twin Volvo AQD32's - 6 cylinder diesels based on Peugot/Indenor vehicle engines and marinised by Volvo to meet the marine requirement - I am particularly lucky IMHO that the P32 has a nice big engine bay and I can actually get at most of the service parts without turning myself into a knuckle bashing contortionist. My previous boat, a Norman 32 had a Mercedes OM636 4 cylinder diesel fitted with virtually no access except from directly above which was a real pig to service.
But we dont stop here....in the thirst for ever more powerful and higher performance boats we then add on turbo charging and other mods to try and squeeze every last ounce of extra oomph from the basic engine design. Motor Racing teams do this too but they usually accompany their cars with a team of engineers and spares - even complete engines - cos they know damn well that pushing to the edge means they are going to get failures.
The fact of the matter is that the volume requirement for boat engines is extremely low compared to vehicles so design and manufacturing costs will be much higher per unit as also will be the cost of spare parts. If you're savvy and can suss out the origin of your engine block you may well be able to buy spares much more cheaply from a vehicle outlet but servicing and fitting may well not be you're bag so you're going to have to pay someone to do it for you. The access problems are going to virtually guarantee that some routine service tasks are not carried out well unless you can find a really good and conscientious engineer.
Now for the main point............it seems to me that most of the dissatisfaction is coming from those with performance boats ie the pushing to the edge brigade who (again IMHO) are actually to some extent the instigators of their own aggravation. They demand more and more, suppliers try to meet what they see as a demand, costs go higher, closer to the edge means more failures = more aggravation and disatisfaction.
Human nature continues to encourage hope over adversity .....wot we'd like is a super performance, super reliable, lightweight diesel with minimum servicing needs and cheap spare parts ...get real!!!
If an engine manufacturer cant make a profit they'll go out of business and we'll get less choice.......................but then surely we dont want a choice of mediocre and unreliable do we? Or is that better than nothing?
I know we have some fliers on the forum..how do reliability and cost compare for light aircraft ? I suspect that being a few hundred feet up concentrates the mind on what constitutes reliability and sensible maintenance routines.;-)



' shouldn't cost much to put that right....or is it a v*lv*? ;-)'

www.boatsonthethames.co.uk

 

[ccscott49]

Good post! It covers some of the things and more that I wrote on the Engines thread further down. One thing, aircraft engines are built for power with reliabilty and are constructed in such a way and regulated, to allow replacement of parts on a time served basis, something that just does not happen with marine engines, unless racing units. Aircraft engines are also expensive to repair, as the spares are individually inpsected and checked for tolerances etc. wheresa marine engine parts, are inpected by the one in a batch system. But volvo parts, do seem to be very overpriced, just to say this is an originalvolvo part is just a load of howash, somebody makes those parts for volvo, they don't make filters and gaskets, or water pumps and a multitude of other parts, which they have their nameput on and hike the prices to ridiculous levels, it's just not on! They are pissing people off and it will come back to bite them in the arse! The racing engine analogy is a good one, as I said below, power.performance costs money, one way or another!

 

[ChrisP]

Here's an answer then. We all post the alternative part numbers and the Volvo it fits. Some kind soul collates them into a data base then set's it up on it's own web site.

If nobody else wants to have a go, I will.

Any better ideas?

ChrisP )

What do you mean the sea gull in front's walking !!!

 

[boatone]

A VolvoPenta Owners Association could be an interesting development..............if enough people registered it could have demonstrable clout!

' shouldn't cost much to put that right....or is it a v*lv*? ;-)'

www.boatsonthethames.co.uk

 

[DepSol]

I dont wholly agree with you on this one, especially as the amount of stick I have received over Soltron and havent een sold it to anyone here. If a rep from Volvo got as much stick he would improve the service I am sure.

Any how as you all know I am out of the water fighting a warrnty claim with Volvo over my engine so I dont think the ecuse of making something to go into a boat then using it as an excuse after that it wasnt initially intended for that purpose doesnt wash. You are paying for a service, if Everyone wanted Soltron for example and I sent then bottled Kerosene and charged them handsomely for it and when they said it hasnt killed my bug say its not my fault/problem it wouldnt be right. Hiding behind a big corporate name legally is also disgusting.

I am trying to come to some agreement with Volvo so lets hope we have a success story to go with the moans.

Dom

Dom


I just want my boat back in the water ;-(

 

[boatone]

I totally agree with you that manufacturers should support their warranty when they sell a product and I am not suggesting that marinising an engine creates something that it wasnt originally intended for. I also agree that a big name shouldnt be able to hide behind it and not face up to their responsibilities. Consumer law is pretty rigorous now and most likely to be successful when applied against reputable companies.
I was really suggesting that constant demand for more performance in a relatively small marketplace is bound to give rise to many of the problems that folk are complaining about.
If everybody stopped buying volvo engines they would presumably stop serving the marine market. Where would that leave all the owners of existing engines?
As a matter of interest, does anyone know how many different volvo marine engine types there are now in service and how many of each were actually delivered ? I suspect there are many different models but relatively few of each.


' shouldn't cost much to put that right....or is it a v*lv*? ;-)'

www.boatsonthethames.co.uk

 

[BarryH]

Mine isnt a jolly green giant, its a red dread! Agree with some of it but there is a small contradiction there. When you say the majority of engines are designed as automotive units true. But the part about spares being designed for marine engines. Well there not there adapted not designed for marine use. As far as the service part goes, well i drive a porche, a range rover and a ford escort van. Fairly wide price range of cars. Not once have i had the kind of service from any of the dealers that i have had from Vilevo. Theres a load more car buying people out there than there is boat buying people. So you'd think that the marine companies would take care of a smaller customerbase and keep its custom, rather than chance it going else where!

Smile. its only money!

 

[jfm]

It's pretty easy to make a reliable diesel engine, if no constraints on weight/size. But boat manufacturers (and maybe us too, as customers, though not me personally) are asking for high bhp but small volume, so as not to use up cabin space etc. It's then that high stressing etc occurs. So who's really to blame?

I was interested in your comment that most marine diesels are truck/auto-conversions. That's definitely true. But some, incl the Volvo KAD300 and its earlier derivatives claim to be marine only. This is a remarkably high bhp/volume ratio engine, supercharged and turbocharged, and high rpm. Anecdotally, it seems unreliable. I have no idea as to the correct history, but some have said that it is marine-only not because it was designed that way, but because it turned out so unreliable that truckers wouldn't buy it so it got sold to the marine only!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

You make some very good points here but there is a basic moral and legal duty on behalf of the engine manufacturers to provide a product which is 'fit for purpose' and it is arguable whether the kind of high revving, turbo/super charged engines currently produced by Volvo and others are indeed fit for the purpose of powering a motor boat for 15-20yrs without a major rebuild.
I dont believe this is entirely customer driven so much as driven by the boat builders and engine manufacturers themselves. Firstly, I guess that Volvo achieve overwhelming market leadership by offering the big boat builders heavily discounted prices for volume and, probably, exclusivity which means that the customer gets little or no choice. Secondly, boats are getting ever heavier with the increasing amount of equipment stuffed into them and yet they are still expected to achieve 30knots, 40 knots or whatever. Thirdly, the boat builders themselves want to be able to offer us ever faster boats to encourage we punters to trade up. All this leads to a spiral of extracting more and more power from ever lighter engines
Obviously, the new boat buyer has most to gain and least to lose out of this because he's likely to have traded his boat in before the real problems start and it's going to be the poor buyer 2 or 3 owners down the line who's going to be shafted with big repair bills and the expensive parts
The only way to improve this situation is for endemic problems of premature failure and incompetent after sales service to be regularly publicised but given the rather feeble stance of MBY/MBM on these issues, dont hold your breath

 

[KevB]

Codswollop

The people to blame are the manufacturers. If I in my line of work promised one thing and provided something less, I would be to blame and would get a grilling and have to correct/put right to the promised standard. So I don't promise what I can't deliver. Simple.
If marine engine manufacturers can't provide a reliable, efficient, powerful, relatively light weight diesel engine then don't promise one.

As an aside I'd like a 1000cc 400bhp 8 seater sports car that does 230mph and 0-62 in 2.2 seconds and a gaurantee it's going to protect me when I crash. Oh and 400mpg. Can't really see any car manufacturers promising me one just because that's what I want ;¬)

Politically incorrect and proud of it.

 

[trev]

ccscott49 hits the nail when he says Volvo don't manufacture most of the commonly required spares.
I had cause to buy a starter motor for similar engines to boatone's - this was a good few years back but - Volvo Marine Dealer price was 350 pounds, car (peugot) dealer price 80 pounds. Even given that the Volvo kit had a bit of extra whammy around it cant possibly account for the extra cost. The same applied to the 'Hardy-Spicer' couplings for the outdrives on the same boat.
Now on my fourth Volvo powered boat and so far had no major problems - if and when I do I'll be shopping around to find the best deal on 'non Volvo' parts.
The idea of collating a 'spares equivalent' website really appeals to me.

Trev

 

[tr7v8]

The comment about Volvo selling engines heavily discounted is probably true and they do that because it ties in the owner to thier spares chain. Although I do my own servicing on the toy car my other 2 new ones are serviced whilst under warranty by the dealer. Whilst I can shop around for bits for the TR I am stuck with prices that the dealers want to charge me for the new ones.
The difference between this and boats is that the Co. car market forces costs of servicing down between manufacturers. Hence longer intervals between servicing and cheaper costs when it does need it and the truck market which is where most bigger diesels come from is just the same.
I would bet that not many boat owners do any servicing thereselves, therefore the service agents can price parts at pretty much whatever they want. Start doing you own servicing and shop around for parts and I'd suspect the prices would drop considerably.
As regards Aircraft engines they are big and lazy, typically 5ish litres developing 180-200HP at 3000ish RPM, they also are sitting in the open air so are easy to cool, unlike us who dump engines in confined spaces and then expect them to keep running.

 

[dickh]

I found V*lv* prices better than P*rk*ns when I wanted an exhaust injector elbow - I have a Perama M20 (same base engine as the V*lv* 2020 - made in Japan...)and saved £50 using the V*lv* part as against the P*rk*ns part... This is the only time however, normally the P*rk*ns part is cheaper than V*lv* - even the distributor was surprised!!

 

[PGD]

Some good points here but Volvo or any manufacturer aren’t going to reinvent the wheel each time they put out a new engine, they will take the core bit they are happy with and then tweak it a bit. Just look at coke, with diet, caffeine free and with flavours – it called brand extension.

Also Deleted User is correct in that if it isn’t fit for purpose then you’ve got them, statute protects you, who ever you go up against.

The other point is that the car market is much bigger, globally promoted on TV with masses of programmes and boats aren’t, they don’t reach millions of people so lax practices can creep in. The voice of the small groups of customers is too small to be heard.

Even if it were heard, who in the general public gives a stuff – cars affect everyone boats only a select few with the perception of the others that if you have one, you can afford it, so winging about the price of spares gains no support.

This isn’t to say I can afford all I want, I agree with all that has been said, I too want cheaper parts and servicing at better standards.

We need publicity and that’s all there is to it. Boat mags will cover only certain aspects and not get into Greenpeace type offensives. Similarly any consumer assoc will need to look at their priorities and this one probably won’t make the cut.

We all need to get together and form a voice of boating consumers, we need facts and figures and a well co-ordinated long term campaign. The media will cover true consumer let downs but not mud slinging.

I’m in for the fight if the rest of you are, let me know.

Peter




Not everything is black and white if you prove otherwise you’ll get run over on a zebra crossing

 

[jfm]

The market in action

Kev, yes if YOU wanted that 400bhp 8 seater car, they wouldn't make it speshully for you. Bit if THOUSANDS of people wanted it they would try their hardest to make it, and make a few engineering compromises / bodges along the way in trying to defy a few laws of physics. That's the free market in action

So it is with boats. Thousands of people do want boats with massive cabins and will put up with tiny engine rooms, and 30kts performance, etc etc, so the manufacturers do push the limits to deliver (most of the time....) this better than their competitors.

I admire your principle that you will not promise what you can't deliver, and I dont criticise you one bit for it, but imho it isn't a formula that would make you a lot of money if you were a boat builder serving the "boatshow public". You gotta give the market what it thinks it wants to buy, not something you think/know is better or even perfect

 

[jfm]

Re: the case for Volvo

I wonder if we get a balanced view. OK, Depsol has suffered a major engine failure, sounds like Volvo's fault. MBM's last boat bust, but that was the servicer's fault - arguably at least - he left a massive tappet gap and the valves bust. Piers had some niggles after 700hours on KADs and got the heads skimmed, but that was mostly his choice, not a big volvo failure. HLB has suffered a couple of lost gearboxes on a boat 10yrs+ old. But what else? How many other massive failures are there? I've had a dozen marine engines in my life incl Volvos and never ever been let down by something I could blame on manufacturer. In contrast I had a brand new BMW M car 3 years ago - a high qwality bit of engineering you'd think - that needed a whole new engine at 7,500 miles due to bearing failure; I just put that down to bad luck and isolated incident, it just happens.

So, are the failures really that common? Are we being realistic?

As regards spares prices, totally different issue. Agree much of what is said. Only way to fix that is vote with your feet/wallet, and buy from other sources. You then take risk of counterfeit, but you pays your money and takes your choice.

Flames expected/invited. Fireproof suit being fitted now.

 

[PGD]

Re: the case for Volvo

Quite right we only hear about the bad stuff. It’s like that silly car research they do – that says more accidents happen in Mini’s than in Jags – oh maybe it’s cos there are more Mini’s on the road

It does sound like another pet forum hate – like S*****N and now do we ban the word V***O too, when infact there is nothing wrong with either.

Peter


Not everything is black and white if you prove otherwise you’ll get run over on a zebra crossing

 

[tcm]

Re: the case for Volvo

Hum, we do hear rather a lot of anecdotal evidence tho, many others (not on BB) with rolling eyes and stories of failures re volvo engines. Spose a proper survey is needed. I wiould have liked to hear some ardent supporters of those who have ever ever been let down by volvo engines, and wdn't have anything else etc etc.

Sepretly quite interesting why everyone ooh ahh BMW. Marine-wise a total failure, frexample. motorbikes somewhat trudge 50+. Mercedes and vw have bein blamming up and down autobahns for 70 years but bmw much more recent, bubble cars till mid-60's, and since then multiple reworkings of the Triumph 2.5PI. The adverts are good tho....

 

[DepSol]

Re: the case for Volvo

Get th point but they should cough up when something does fail !!!

Dom


I just want my boat back in the water ;-(

 

[gtmoore]

Re: the case for Volvo

Sorry to drift off thread but...is that so? - the straight 6 BMW engines have some basings on the old Triumph engine?