Energy Saving Bulbs - Not LEDs

[charles_reed]

I'm perhaps being overly simplistic, but the only objective comparison between lighting systems must be the lumens emitted.

Most LED purveyors are understandably reticent about publishing their LED performance figures - but one brave soul who does claims:-

MR16 - High Power LED lamp in Warm White
Contains 15 High Brightness wide angle (5050) LEDs
Lumens: 240L (Cool White); 210L (Warm White)
Wattage: 3W
Voltage: 8 to 30 volts DC
Current draw: 250ma
Suggested approximate replacement for 25W Halogen bulb
120 degree wide angle floodlight

A look at the biggest supplier of lighting to the trade gives:-
10 Watt - MR16 - Eurostar - 12 Volts - Narrow Flood - Open Face - Halogen Light Bulb - Ushio 1001107 Lumens (initial) 600.

So x3 the consumption for x3 the light seems about right to me, admittedly from one of the leading producers of halogen bulbs.
Incidentally even a small low-price standard GU4 10watt capsule produces 120 lumens.

What am I missing?

Perhaps those souls who are such vociferous supporters of LED lighting are like the adults in the Anderson tale about "The Emperor's New Clothes".

 

[Conachair]

Perhaps those souls who are such vociferous supporters of LED lighting are like the adults in the Anderson tale about "The Emperor's New Clothes".

Don't think so.

I love a gadget so was biased towards them but led's never fullfulled their promise for me. They blew when the solars put the voltage too high and were too dim to be of any use.

Then I got some good ones.

Now at least I can read the emperors new clothes in bright light with barely any current draw. Makes you want to go offshore again.

 

[noelex]

A look at the biggest supplier of lighting to the trade gives:-
10 Watt - MR16 - Eurostar - 12 Volts - Narrow Flood - Open Face - Halogen Light Bulb - Ushio 1001107 Lumens (initial) 600.

Charles something is wrong with those figures 100000 lumen per watt is obviously a mistake but to 60 Lumens per watt from a white halogen domestic bulb is also not possible.

 

[charles_reed]

Charles something is wrong with those figures 100000 lumen per watt is obviously a mistake but to 60 Lumens per watt from a white halogen domestic bulb is also not possible.

No mistakes, though cutting and pasting probably led to mistransliteration.

Here's the link

http://www.1000bulbs.com/search/?q=...=Halogen+Light+Bulbs/MR16+Halogen+Light+Bulbs

The section, on the same website, on LEDs also gives a more balanced and comparable picture of light-emission, which does not bear out the claims made for the "vastly increased efficiency" of LEDs over halogen bulbs.

In fact I can read very well with a 5watt halogen in my boat, that saves a lot of electricity.

 

[noelex]

No mistakes, though cutting and pasting probably led to mistransliteration.

Here's the link

http://www.1000bulbs.com/search/?q=...=Halogen+Light+Bulbs/MR16+Halogen+Light+Bulbs

The section, on the same website, on LEDs also gives a more balanced and comparable picture of light-emission, which does not bear out the claims made for the "vastly increased efficiency" of LEDs over halogen bulbs.

In fact I can read very well with a 5watt halogen in my boat, that saves a lot of electricity.

The most I can find for white halogen bulbs G4 on the link is
13 lumens per watt A long way from 60 lumens per watt.

http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/53868/Q-G412V102130FR.html

Higher values are certainly possible for halogen globes, but 60 lumens per watt!!
This is a misprint.

5w halogen globes, I used these before efficient LEDs became available, but the 1w Led I am using now is much better.

 

[mobeydick]

I too would say all the LEDs I have tried (inlcuding the ones recommended here) have a light quality inferior to halogen. Exactly as OP said, bright, but not comfortable, and more difficult to read by, for some reason. I have them in the saloon, as the power saving is worth having, but have kept a halogen over the seating area.

To a casual observer, it looks fine, but you begin to notice skin tones just dont look right. A colour chart looks different under the LED's too. But mostly just 'uncomfortable'. Almost like they have eliminated the blue cast of the old LEDs but left too much 'near UV' in.

Maybe the art gallery $68 lights are better, but I guess they are looking for 'daylight' quality rather than 'warm domestic' lighting.

md

 

[charles_reed]

The most I can find for white halogen bulbs G4 on the link is
13 lumens per watt A long way from 60 lumens per watt.

http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/53868/Q-G412V102130FR.html

Higher values are certainly possible for halogen globes, but 60 lumens per watt!!
This is a misprint.

5w halogen globes, I used these before efficient LEDs became available, but the 1w Led I am using now is much better.

So that we compare like for like (the LED was an MR16 from-factor NOT a GU4 standard bulb) and don't try that naughty substitution trick here's the detail for you Noelex:-

Stock Code: MR16-1001107U
10 Watt - MR16 - Eurostar - 12 Volts - Narrow Flood - Open Face - Halogen Light Bulb - Ushio 1001107

* Brand : Ushio
* Part No. : 1001107
* UPC : 48777172735
* Wattage : 10 Watt
* Voltage : 12 Volt
* Base Type : GU5.3
* Beam Angle : 21 Degree
* Bulb Color : Clear
* Bulb Shape : MR16
* Bulb Type : Halogen

* Color Temperature : 2800K
* Diameter : 2 in.
* Length (M.O.L.) : 1.77 in.
* Face Type : Open
* Features : Titanium Oxide Reflector Coating
* Life Hours : 1,200
* Lumens (Initial) : 600
* Burn Position : Universal
* Case Quantity : 50
* Note : See Product Information for Detailed Specifications

Perhaps you'd be so good as to agree there is no misprint.

As I've said - LED exponents are being even more imaginative in their proof than "Humans-are-the-sole-cause-of-global-warming" climatologists.

 

[Chris_Robb]

I too would say all the LEDs I have tried (inlcuding the ones recommended here) have a light quality inferior to halogen. Exactly as OP said, bright, but not comfortable, and more difficult to read by, for some reason. I have them in the saloon, as the power saving is worth having, but have kept a halogen over the seating area.


md

Hence why I am trying these CCFL lights, which on the face of it look as economical as LEDs. There is something about LED light that I don't like and feel uncomfortable with. To all those with LEDs, I do have some recent ones (yellow bulbs) and they are ok but not.... I need good light in common with many shortsighted people - not as bad as Mr Mgee though before someone says it...

 

[noelex]

So that we compare like for like (the LED was an MR16 from-factor NOT a GU4 standard bulb) and don't try that naughty substitution trick here's the detail for you Noelex:-


Perhaps you'd be so good as to agree there is no misprint.

If you go to the PDF for the light in question, which is a link from the website you quoted, you will see its definitely a misprint.

http://www.1000bulbs.com/pdf/12V-Eurostar-Specs.pdf

The 600 refers to Cd not lumens.

 

[mobeydick]

Hence why I am trying these CCFL lights, which on the face of it look as economical as LEDs. There is something about LED light that I don't like and feel uncomfortable with. To all those with LEDs, I do have some recent ones (yellow bulbs) and they are ok but not.... I need good light in common with many shortsighted people - not as bad as Mr Mgee though before someone says it...

I do wonder if it has something to do with the fact that LEDs are switched on and off very rapidly (as are other forms of lighting of course, but which generally have a much slower response chracteristic). Should be above visible range (120hz+) but e.g. ultra-low audio frequencies have an effect even though not 'audible'.

md

 

[charles_reed]

If you go to the PDF for the light in question, which is a link from the website you quoted, you will see its definitely a misprint.

http://www.1000bulbs.com/pdf/12V-Eurostar-Specs.pdf

The 600 refers to Cd not lumens.

OK and thanks for checking - on a 21degree beam about 61 lumens.

So a good LED MR 16 is about x10 as efficient as a good MR16 halogen. All one has to square is the apparently less desirable colour of light.

The whole argument is bedevilled by a lack of common measurements and/or any figures at all - that always makes me suspicious of snake-oil sales arguments.

It is rather more cost-effective to increase your solar panel array, to make up for the additional consumption of halogen bulbs, than to shell out for LEDs (many of which appear to be of doubtful quality)

 

[Chris_Robb]

So a good LED MR 16 is about x10 as efficient as a good MR16 halogen. All one has to square is the apparently less desirable colour of light.

The whole argument is bedevilled by a lack of common measurements and/or any figures at all - that always makes me suspicious of snake-oil sales arguments.

It is not the light colour, its something more fundamental in the type of light. They are viciously bright to look at - but then you look at where there are shinning - and it has no comparison.

I agree that many people want them to work therefore they do. I am very unconvinced - I await receipt of my CCFL bulbs we will see

 

[Conachair]

I do wonder if it has something to do with the fact that LEDs are switched on and off very rapidly (as are other forms of lighting of course, but which generally have a much slower response chracteristic). Should be above visible range (120hz+) but e.g. ultra-low audio frequencies have an effect even though not 'audible'.

md

Quick google seems to suggest that the more recent drivers are constant current devices and not voltage switching devices, thus less RF noise.

But - does anyone here actually know what they are talking about re drivers and could enlighten us a little?

Interesting artical here http://www.marktechopto.com/Engineering-Services/toshiba-constant-current-led-drivers.cfm though talking about signs.

LEDs are provided by the LED manufacturer in "bins" that group LEDs into homogeneous groups of like brightness. An LED brightness bin typically groups LEDs within a 2 to 1 brightness ratio, with some degree of overlap between adjacent bins. It is widely accepted throughout the industry that this 2 to 1 grouping of LEDs is consistent, in terms of brightness, to the human eye. These bins are typically assigned a letter or number code which identifies a 2 to 1 brightness range measured in millicandelas. Figure 1 shows a typical bin table.

A problem that sign manufactures encounter with this binning process, however is the variation in the forward voltage drop (Vf) of an LED. Although the LEDs are sorted for brightness, the sorting is performed at a consistent current, typically 10 or 20 mA (see figure 2). This compensates for the variations in Vf with respect to the binning process but does not address the fact that most of today's conventional LED driving circuits are not constant current sources. Vf may vary from lot to lot, or between manufactures and will vary from color to color. Although the Vf of a given LED part number generally remains fairly consistent, there are cases where Vf may vary from the typical value by as much as 0.5 volts or more as the specifications (see Figure 2) for an LED indicate. The consequences of this in a conventional sign circuit is that an LED with lower Vf will see more current, resulting in a difference in brightness between the LEDs.

Seems to suggest that good quality drivers are as important as the lamps themselves.

All the more reason to get good ones.

 

[noelex]

The whole argument is bedevilled by a lack of common measurements and/or any figures at all - that always makes me suspicious of snake-oil sales arguments.

It is rather more cost-effective to increase your solar panel array, to make up for the additional consumption of halogen bulbs, than to shell out for LEDs (many of which appear to be of doubtful quality)

I do agree many of the claims made for cheap LEDs are greatly exaggerated. I also think that many of the Leds are of very poor quality.

My own belief is that those people who are unhappy with the quality and colour temperature of LEDs feel that way because they have never seen any good ones.

Hopefully one day our boats might meet up and over a drink I can show you how well good leds perform
.

 

[Conachair]

If anyones interested I fianlly got round to charging up the batts for the little ssb reciever. Even with the aerial right next to the leds from bedazelled there was hardly any noise. Laptop charger was a bit noisy if you got close but the flourescent was worst culprit, very noisy even several feet away. Not that it matters most of the time but offshore or in an out of the way anchorage where weatherfax is needed then it does become a bit more of a factor.