Electronics - Too Expensive?

[Tranona]

Do you really believe that? You don't think that a larger business has better buying power or that another specialises in a particular make so sells more. You don't think that a larger business needs to recover less fixed overhead allocation from each sale.

I'm all in favour of one of the big supermarkets going into marine chandlery. There's still room for the corner shop, just look at how the Nicer (intentionally incorrect spelling) chain of independants have come together to compete.

I'm happy that we don't agree and I'm happy to be called a cynic but the industry needs to pull its socks up, INHO

You clearly have little idea about the economics of running a chandlery business. If it was so easy to cut prices and still stay in business then there would not be the constant stream of bankruptcies that litter the industry.

Just to get you thinking. Captain OM Watts, Thomas Fowkes, Ladyline, Pumpkin Marine, Cruisermart, Simpson Lawrence, Southwest Marine Factors - just a few off the top of my head that have tried what you are proposing (ie reducing prices to fight for your business) and reaped the (negative) rewards.

It is hard work out there trying to make a decent living out of retailing marine products and if you look at history you will find that all the formats have been tried at one time or another, but the challenge of offering a wide range of products to a fickle market that is very seasonal is not easy to meet.

Anyway, what do I know, I have only been involved in it for 35 years!

 

[Mrnotming]

Too expensive boat electronics?

I went for a 7" lorenz Sun Colour plotter with two locating "feet"one at the chart table and one at the helm.
Advantage, GPS of its own,would drive the A/P and did not mind spray and rain.It did a lot for its cost about EU 800 10 years ago.Charts for the Lorenz are still expensive so I trade in the one area I am finished with,for another.Wide area chart cards are often lacking harbour detail.
All is not lost however, under the chart table lid lies an ancient Compaq lappy, 64MB RAM! with various charts of relevance.Not allowed online as it would die of fright nowadays!Interfaced with an 8 channel MLR GPS which came with the boat,it seldom loses signal.
The saloon table is used for a paper chart sandwiched between two acrylic sheets hinged with strong tape on one side.X marks the position thereon hourly.Join the dots if you want!
So maybe the charts come from a well known source and are posted to me when I need them.NOT to be......etc. notarised.
Big purchase so is an up to date Almanac, LIvre du Bord EU 28 this year,all harbour chartlets inside.

A Furuno 1623 radar, works well, secondhand. I see these still on offer for £ 1600 odd new, strange I thought they were old hat now, well built though and reliable.

So only the Lorenz plotter is deemed fit for purpose outside.

Laptop,Radar, and paper chart down below,

I keep nice and warm running up and down the companionway!
This year my small Vodafone V845 3G was useful for getting gribs on the Navionics Charts.Miniscule screen but for wind was most handy!

With the improved Autopilot setup I can rely on good tracking and SWMBO keeps watch if things are mucky.The ST50/60 seatalk is most useful for its ability to link the wind angle to the A/P and does a great job on a reach or close hauled.The wind change warning beep is loud enough to hear.
Next step is an AIS Transponder,which makes OPEN CPN more useful as the lappy main nav program.
A DSC VHF was not deemed expensive,but proves a bother in Italian waters, as they seem to use the alarm for the weather forecast advance notice!
Good sailing and boating to all!

 

[prv]

I'd be interested to know how people in their right minds managed difficult bits of pilotage without reading a chart at the helm of an open cockpit. Unless I know my way so well there's no possibility of forgetting a hard bit within reach of my keels or I'm practically out of sight of land, the chart's always to hand in the cockpit.

Put a competent helmsman on, then stand on the companionway step with head out the hatch and hand-bearing compass and binos on the cabin top in front of you. Bob up and down between chart table and lookout.

This assumes a proper crew; for the overstretched family man with non-sailing wife and kids, get a plotter

Pete

 

[lukecsmith]

For a cheap plotter at the helm - get an iphone. Install the navionics app with UK and Holland charts - £17. Get an phone charger linked to house batteries - half hour installation and cheap as chips. Get a fully waterproof cover for iphone - £10. Works fantastically well.

Ive got a chart table where I plot my course. Then Ive got a plastic wallet containing print-outs of the area I'll be sailing in (I scan them into the computer and print out the section I need). So I can sit at the helm and navigate, and check the chart by looking at the plastic wallet. I can then double-check my position using the iphone app. If I need to I can do the entire navigation on the app. I'd rather use the paper chart though and make sure I can do it without electronics, just for peace of mind.

Ive got an old old Garmin GPS system inside at the chart table - the kind that just tells you the lat and long, and lets you type in waypoints (if you have a love of spending hours tapping 3 **** buttons). Its a useful backup to all the other systems. At times I'll pop down to the table and compare my reading of position to what the Garmin GPS says, and what the iphone says. the iphone has not been wrong once, it is a great piece of kit.

Ive never used a proper swanky new plotter, and I dont want to because I dont want to be spoilt! The iphone does the job perfectly for now.

 

[charles_reed]

You clearly have little idea about the economics of running a chandlery business. If it was so easy to cut prices and still stay in business then there would not be the constant stream of bankruptcies that litter the industry.

Just to get you thinking. Captain OM Watts, Thomas Fowkes, Ladyline, Pumpkin Marine, Cruisermart, Simpson Lawrence, Southwest Marine Factors - just a few off the top of my head that have tried what you are proposing (ie reducing prices to fight for your business) and reaped the (negative) rewards.

It is hard work out there trying to make a decent living out of retailing marine products and if you look at history you will find that all the formats have been tried at one time or another, but the challenge of offering a wide range of products to a fickle market that is very seasonal is not easy to meet.

Anyway, what do I know, I have only been involved in it for 35 years!

Pumpkin Marine - I spoke with the proprietor and he was quite clear that he was getting out because of the penny-pinching client-base and he could make more out of his plant-rental business.
Simpson Lawrence - classic management incompetence, takeover, new premises and new computer system at the same time.
But I do agree, yotties are probably the most disagreeable and skinflint customers anyone can suffer.
Equally the leisure boating industry suffers from some of the most incompetent management to be found in the British Isles - perhaps that has as much to do with it as does the market!

 

[lukecsmith]

Surely as someone has already pointed out, this comes down to the size of the market and demand. Supermarkets are cheap because of their size and buying power drives down costs. They can bully manufacturers of anything into cutting costs, from dairy farmers to clothes manufacturers. And they can invest in huge global networks to further cut costs.

You cant blame yacht owners for being skinflints. They are simply paying customers like anyone else. You think hard-up mothers in supermarkets are any more generous? No-one wants to pay over the odds. Boat owners are a small market, so theres less money in it for the suppliers, so the products are more expensive. Simple.

 

[charles_reed]

I had a Dinghy Decca - most times it was far more lost than I was!

It all boils down to where and how you sail.

IMHO anyone who relies on a GPS smartphone is asking for trouble - the speed of update and the general inexactitude, unless you have cellular coverage, rules them out for marine navigation.

The problems for me are the vast number of charts I'd need for my cruising area make it impossible to stow them on a small boat.
The other consideration is the power demands of a laptop system especially on a laptop running any Microsoft OS.
A small chartplotter has a minimal battery drain - the cost of the vector navigation software is an handicap, and the lack of them being correctly updated is another.
The comments about the cost of marine electronics is, IMHO, misplaced.
Market size, business overheads and other economic considerations make it impossible for much reduction in prices.
However, personal importation, from the States can save 30-35% on UK prices - where prices are inflated by VAT and the minute size of the market.

PS The largest single marine leisure market is in France and that is about 18% the size of the US one.

PSS When I say personal import I do mean buying it there and bringing it over in your luggage, shipping and UK duties and VAT show a minute benefit over UK purchase.

 

[Babylon]

I would agree with your needs and wants statement but would refine it a bit more. The need is driven by the fact that sailing is a leisure pursuit and sailors, in general terms, don't want to navigate traditionally. The act of switching on a chart plotter and instantly knowing where you are is very enticing and contributes to the leisure experience quite significantly through its convenience.

I'm in the sizable minority who don't want the convenience of big-dick interfaced chartplotters at the helm - who's whole love of sailing includes a love of traditional navigation - but are prepared to pay, within limits, for relatively essential safety kit, based on the kind of sailing they do.

To this end, I bought a Furuno radar new (based on scary cross-channel fog and big-ship experiences), and a discounted end-of-line Garmin 76 handheld GPS/plotter with free chart (to assist with occassional single-handed pilotage in unfamiliar waters when exhausted and confused). I'm now looking at getting the Standard Horizon combined DSC-VHF/AIS unit (based on subsequent cross-channel brown-trouser moments). Note that all three items are stand-alone, for safety.

So my love of traditional navigation has, based on actual experience, led me to re-define my own electronic needs - rather than allow my decisions to be led purely by marketing and convenience.

How all this effects the cost of kit, I'll leave for others to comment.

 

[Skylark]

You clearly have little idea about the economics of running a chandlery business. QUOTE]

Please don’t make presumptions about me; you don’t know me from Adam. It’s okay to have a differing opinion but please don’t make it personal.

 

[maby]

Many folks think they NEED a chartplotter. A handheld GPS, like a Garmin GPSMap76Cx is simply a small chartplotter. Used to be over $350US, now less than half of that. Depending on your situation, I'm not sure one nreally "needs" more than that.

Wants and needs are two different things.

Then, there are always the boat show salespeople.

Columbus, Drake, Nelson, ... nobody needs them - boats are like cars - we love to bling them - was thinking of getting a pair of fluffy dice to haul up the penant halyard!

 

[Tranona]

You clearly have little idea about the economics of running a chandlery business. QUOTE]

Please don’t make presumptions about me; you don’t know me from Adam. It’s okay to have a differing opinion but please don’t make it personal.

Not making any presumptions about you at all. Just responding to your comments about the reluctance of suppliers to meet your price expectations, and suggesting reasons why.

Nothing personal, but suppliers are in business to (try) and make a profit and if they choose not to reduce their prices that is their decision and they live with the consequences.

 

[maxi77]

I'm quite happy to do my passage planning at the dinette table (there aren't many 24 footers with a dedicated chart table), but I'd be more likely to do it beforehand at home.

However, I'd be interested to know how people in their right minds managed difficult bits of pilotage without reading a chart at the helm of an open cockpit. Unless I know my way so well there's no possibility of forgetting a hard bit within reach of my keels or I'm practically out of sight of land, the chart's always to hand in the cockpit.

Some time ago I was the navigating officer of one of Her Majesties Submarines, we had open bridges and no space for a chart table. I did a plan for every bit of pilotage and it was reduced to a table of clearing bearings and turn marks. I would go all the way from Cumbrae Lt to alongside at Faslane without looking at a chart.

Mind you when I was sailing in the Forth I had a waterproof chart which made life pretty easy along with a basic handheld GPS.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I'm quite happy to do my passage planning at the dinette table (there aren't many 24 footers with a dedicated chart table), but I'd be more likely to do it beforehand at home.

However, I'd be interested to know how people in their right minds managed difficult bits of pilotage without reading a chart at the helm of an open cockpit. Unless I know my way so well there's no possibility of forgetting a hard bit within reach of my keels or I'm practically out of sight of land, the chart's always to hand in the cockpit.

Well, the same way I do it with a chart plotter at the chart table - you check the chart shortly before making the entrance, get the picture in your head and note important marks and transits. Also, you break the passage down into bits - "once I'm past such and such a buoy, I need to look for ..." or even "Once I'm past this bit I need to check the chart again".

However, I have a visual memory, and can remember maps and charts fairly well - it is (at present!) the day job.