Electricity and Water

[Talbot]

<it looks like a lot of extra kit needed to adapt the duogen to use in the water which is redundant unless we are underway, and we won't actually be passage-making for 97% of the time >

Appreciate that, however, there is actually very little to adapt between the modes, and it is very quick and easy. The considerably greater charge available and elimination of noise makes it worthwhile. The duogen is a lot more money than the others (because of this dual capability), but even in wind mode it does provide more power than its rivals as can be seen by comparing duogen http://www.unlimited-power.co.uk/Aerogen_spec.html and with the rutland 913 <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.marlec.co.uk/products/prods/rut913.htm#>http://www.marlec.co.uk/products/prods/rut913.htm#</A>

All depends on your intended useage. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

As for the "washing machine" I will be short on space/power/water so will be making some reductions!

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[Anonymous]

The Bavaria looks like a nice boat. We will sometimes have one adult couple who appreciate comfort and sometimes a younger couple with two young children. The 43DS convertible forward section means that we would either have a large 2 berth cabin with setee or two cabins, one with bunk beds which children love. I hope it works in practice as well as it looks on paper. I will pay special attention to where we would put the generator and watermaker, given your comments.

A lot of people put the liferaft in the transom locker - that is the stated place - but that is a stupid place to put it, it seems to me. How is anyone going to get down there when the conditions are bad? Whichever boat we get, I plan to put the liferaft on the pushpit with a quick-release mechanism so that my wife could launch it without any difficulty. Indeed, launching the liferaft will, after heaving-to and trying to return to the casualty, be an integral part of my 'Man Overboard' procedure since there is no way on God's earth that my wife would get me back on board.

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[Anonymous]

Re: schenker watermaker

Do you have any personal views about watermakers in the Med? My feeling is that if we are going to anchor for a few days in one place I don't want to have to keep dashing into harbour to water; it adds wear to everything, takes time and there is often a queue for watering facilties for non-bertholders (at least that's true of the UK and Channel, I guess the same is true of the Med in season?). You also stand to lose a good spot in the anchorage. I'd much prefer to have no water restrictions and just fill up the diesel whenever we need it - not very often, I imagine.

But then if we ended up spending nearly all our time in marinas the generator and watermaker would have been a total waste of money, space and weight. I don't know how likely that is, since the last time I was out there it was on a large motorboat with my parents who were somewhat older at the time (and wealthier).

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[HaraldS]

I agree that on paper the whispergen looks like a bad idea, though when factoring in some realities I'm not so sure. As I said, I don't have one, but would seriously consider one if I equipped new.
One fact of life is that with new battries I started out running the generator for 2.5hrs a day, now after four years I'm approaching five. Per logbook my generator had used an average of 1.5 litres per hour. So I'm now at 7 litres per day. With new batteries I was about 4 litres. I havent noticed big changes in average consumption, even thogh the watermaker would typically run just for one of the generator hours and the washing machine, averaged over the days maybe less than half an hour.
So the fact of life is, my generator spends most of it's run-time charging, and making hot water, which also takes three hours to get reasonably hot with the 800W cartridge.
So between 4 and 7 litres is 5.5 litres per day for the lifetime of my battries...
The whispergen at 100% dutycycle is said to take 14 litres a day.
My average consumption while on battery is around 200W. Averaging out watermaker and washing maschine adds less than 100W a day.
So I have 200W at an efficiency that I cannot change, and <100W at 92% of my Victron Inverter. In short the whisper would have to supply at most 350W, which would be 50% dutycycle, which would be 7 litres a day.

That comes out a bit higher, though I would spend less on batteries.

I haven't factored in that every 8 to 10 times I need to charge the batteries fully which would be more like 10 hours on such a day. And that would add an hour to each day on average, and then we break even.

So far this wasn't necessary too often, as we were either hooked up once in a while or we would have to motor for a whole day.

On long sailing passages and long stays at anchor, this bonus isn't there however.

One more word regarding the watermaker: Once you had one, you wouldn't do without it any more. Just the hassle of getting water, the extra exposure of your boat to weird jetties, crazy harbors and all that is gone and makes it more than worth while.

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[Anonymous]

HaraldS, thanks for all the input. Which watermaker have you got? Would you buy the same one again?

Do you know about Dolphin generators? Do they have a good reputation?

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[HaraldS]

Watermaker is an undestructable AC unit, from Tecnicomar that consumes 1700W for producing honest 60 L/h. The good things about it are that it is very reliable and the components are built for infinity. The down sides are the lack of energy recovery that clark pumps offer and the relative high noise level.
Tecnicomar have a long track record and aim at the superyacht market. The booster pump for example is centrifugal and with a brushless ACmotor and could run for ever. Same is true for the high-pressure pump motor and the simple three stage high-pressure pump.
Like every watermaker it had several leaks when I tried it first and that is because the folks who put it in usually cannot test it in the dirty harbours. But that is all easy to fix.

Flushing was also difficult and I installed a few extra diversion valves and built in a 30L outbord engine tank as a flushing reservoir. Now things work like a charm.

Would I buy it again? More likely today, as I'm impressed by the reliability. But back in 2000 when I had it installed the clark pump based options were very limited and had a spectra been on the market I would probably have one.

Now I'm not sure. As you know from the energy discussion, the watermaker hardly matters and the noise for an hour a day isn't an issue and nobody has complained. The robustness is a big bonus.

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[temptress]

HI,

We have just got back from the MED and are currently working to fill up the kitty again. The two things we most want before we go off again are a washing machine and a watermaker. This will mean a GENSET also. I've got a windgenerator and this helps keep the power topped up but if I was making the decision again I would not bother.

as said else where I use 12v systems as much as possable and that will include the watermaker but i will opt for a 240v washing machine as run it with the genset going.

Good luck,


<hr width=100% size=1>Temptress of Down
Southsea Marina
Hants
UK

 

[Anonymous]

That's interesting, thank you. It could save a lot of money and clutter if we don't have a windgen and solar panels; with a genset and the main engine we have 100% redundancy, provided we keep a small amount of fuel separate for emergencies.

One hour's running of the generator (charging at 100A) would more than compensate for a whole day's contribution from wind/sun even on sunny and windy days. Interesting that you should have the same view about the washing machine. Laundry is the one thing we really *hate* doing in marinas and laundrymats, and if you bring it back it the tender, and there is any spray, it's back to square one again! It's not nice doing your laundry in public, either. In Beaucette Marina we found we had to queue behind the staff from the nearby restaurant and compete against the washerfolk doing the napkins and tablecloths! Insult to injury.

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[Ric]

I never said water/wind would cover it! Obviously it won't. But how often are you really going to use washing machine at anchor? I suggest you just use washing machine in marinas where you have shore power.

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[briananddoreen]

Dear lemain
If you would like to ring me on 01484 865727 I would like to suggest a different way of solving your problems as regards genny and inverter 240volt supply.
I have gone through the same minefield recently and found a better answer
Incedently my wife and I will be going to the med again about the same time as you via the French canals (see my post on painting masts)

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[Ric]

Regarding your question about the quality of water from watermakers - it is purer than the water from taps. It tastes of nothing - and is very good for making tea. But drinking it raw it is so tasteless it is odd! I think I once saw somewhere some product you can add to watermaker water to make it taste like the water we are used too!

You should not run a watermaker in the marina, as the seawater often has traces of diesel and oil in it and this destroys the filter. Only use the watermaker when well off shore - I'd avoid it even in typical anchorages.

Best plan is to have one tank dedicated to shore water, and another isolated tank for your watermaker.

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[Anonymous]

Hello Briananddoreen, I'll call you, thanks. We will go round - I've done it twice in a motor yacht and am looking forward to doing it under sail. Should be a lot more comfortable, I hope.

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[Anonymous]

Not all marinas have an abundance of electricity and water. I've stayed in quite a few harbours around the Med where both are difficult (years ago, though, maybe things have changed?) and if one is going to anchor off the Riviera for longish periods then water would be very desirable, if not the washing machine. A fresh water shower after a swim is very desirable, and is a great way to cool down in the heat. Being short of water, humping washing to laundrettes and manoeveuring to pick up water from visitors' pontoons in harbours are not my idea of a good lifestyle. However, with regard to your point about watermakers and oil, I'll continue below.........

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[Anonymous]

I understand the need to keep a tank of chlorine-free water for the watermaker but the idea that the small amount of oil in an anchorage would be a problem bothers me - you've got me worried. Does this damage the expensive membranes or the relatively cheap pre-filters? The Med is difficult in that there is little tide, so harbours tend to get utterly disgusting in the season, but I would hope that where common sense suggests that the water is not foul, and no oil film can be seen, then it should be safe to run a watermaker? I would have hoped that I could use it when on a buoy in a port like Falmouth, or Salcombe? Dartmouth? Fowey? I'd have hoped not to need to anchor in the Med in places where we don't want to swim, and to be able to use the watermaker. If not, then it's back to the drawing board on this idea. By the way, what about the Nile, if it was politically safe enough?

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[HaraldS]

Don't worry. Oil usually floats on the surface and doesn't easily get to the water intake. It also doesn't destroy but just clogg the membranes and there are special detergents to clean them in such case. Never had to do any of the special cleaning though.

My rule is that if I would enjoy swimming in the water (given the appropriate temperature) , I'd be happy to run the watermaker.

The worst I have been using it in, was in the lagoon of Faro and Olhao, which is still flushed by the tide, but has a lot of sediment and sea wead. The only problem with that was that I had to change the pre-filters about every 20 hrs. I have then put in a 100µ metall filter (washable) and the pre filter use time has gone up at least twice.

The membranes are also said to block bacteria, but not viruses. For the later there are UV post treatment devices. We just have a charcoal filter. We also flush our toilets into holding tanks and avoid dumping in a nice anchorage. So far absolutely no problems with the water mater that now has just under 400 hrs on it.


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[Anonymous]

HaraldS, thank you. You are the only person here to come out firmly in favour of watermakers - one person said he'd not fit one again unless he went to the Pacific. But I rather suspect that you are perhaps the only person contributing to this thread who sees the value to his lifestyle and has taken the trouble to get a watermaker running to his satisfaction. I looked at the Tecnicomar website and it is a bit ribby. Could you tell me which model you have, approximately what it cost (with all the bits) and how much water you average per hour? How much water do you use a day, typically? I'd like to hear feedback from regular users of their competitors' devices - any idea where I might go to find that?

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[Capt_Marlinspike]

Think hard about why you are sailing away. Obviously it is nice to have all the creature comforts for living aboard, but there is a price to pay. Every additional item that has a motor, engine or pump is another item that will figure high on the maintenance front. These things will break down, will need parts, will need experts to fix them. DO you want to spend significant amounts of time on maintenance or do you want to go sailing? There is a lot to be said for a top quality boat with a minimum mechanical of extras for a contented cruising life.

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[HaraldS]

Hi Lemain,
my model is called SL-400. It comes in all separate pieces and thus can be fit in any odd way. The major blocks are: booster pump, prefilter block, high-pressure pump, membrane array (two in my case), and the control unit.
With so many extras fitted, we needed to move some weight aft and so the unit ended up under the aft cabin double berth, aft of a 500l water tank that is also under that bunk. The control box is conveniently in a cupbord in the fat cabin.
Such a unit comes complete, except for the seawater intake, and a bunch of regular hoses that you might need. You can have it equipped for easy flushing.
Since we fitted the controlbox quite a bit away, we needed a longer high pressure hose than normally comes with the unit.
Ours was fitted in Sweden by Italnordic, a company representing several Italian marine equipment producers on the Swedish Yacht building island of Orust.
Unfortunately they didn't fit anything for flushing and so I had to do the mods myself.
Ours is speced at 60l/h, which it does easily. The manual says to avoid producing more than what is speced, and rather reduce the pressure slightly, so I usually end up setting it below the 60bar at around 57bar do stick to exactly 60l/h. This is off course somewhat dependant on water temperature and sailing in Norway and Scotland I remember that it was working right at the 60bar, and that was in 15 Centigrade water.
Out of a 102 days that we were sailing last year, we spent 32 with shore power, 11 at sea, and the remaining 59 anchored.
The water maker did 78 hours, the generator 214 hours. Relating this to non-harbour or marina days, we had about 1 hour of water making and 3 hours of generator per day.
We always try to run the watermaker briefly before getting into a harbor, and try to be out of the harbour after 3 or 4 days so that we don't have to flush and pickle the watermaker. So far we did fine sticking to that.
I have looked up a German distributor and he sells our unit at €6200 ex vat.
Finally, since the generator has enough power, we usually run washing mashine and watermaker at the same time, then the washing mashine uses about the same amount as gets produced. In that case we use the forward intake for the water maker so that we don't suck in soap water from the washing machine...

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[Anonymous]

Capt_Marlinspike - Thanks. My parents were live-aboards for over 20 years in the Med and I spent quite a bit of time with them so I've had a chance to experience these things (and the lack of them) first hand. I agree with what you say and for us fresh water and a washing machine are important. We found that things that were used daily seemed to go on forever, and that things that had little use kept going wrong.

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[Anonymous]

HaraldS, that is very helpful, thank you.

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