Electrical crimps - your opinion on these, please.

[KompetentKrew]

Hello,

I was wondering the committee's thoughts on my new-to-me boat's electrics. My feelings are that they are above average for a 25-year-old boat, probably because it was with a single owner that whole time.

These connectors look a bit basic and DIY, but I don't see an immediate need to to renew them - I think it's the sheer number of spade connectors that make them look so ugly (to my eye at least), but surely these are up to the job?

I'm inclined in future to use some of those connectors that heatshrink and solder in one. Assuming this proposal meets your approval, what should I heat them with? Gas-powered soldering iron?

• https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01J42LC92
• https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142800389928

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have.

 

[penberth3]

Clean, dry, no corrosion, tied together in straight lines. As you say, above average.

 

[Oletimer]

Looking at the condition, I'd say leave them alone...
on the other hand I wouldn't have fitted them in the first place, I'd have soldered them together and sealed them with shrink to do a proper job.
What ever suits you, I guess.
George

 

[Tammany]

Current legislation says they are not allowed to solder any joint anymore. I still do but I'm not a professional fitter. Vibration can cause fracturing of the wire hardened by soldering.

 

[[70521]]

Functional, but could be a whole lot better.

 

[[70521]]

Current legislation says they are not allowed to solder any joint anymore. I still do but I'm not a professional fitter. Vibration can cause fracturing of the wire hardened by soldering.

Who is going to inspect the boat?

What legislation is this? Can you point me at a reference - thanks.

 

[superheat6k]

Current legislation says they are not allowed to solder any joint anymore. I still do but I'm not a professional fitter. Vibration can cause fracturing of the wire hardened by soldering.

I would be interested to read the legislation referred to - can you provide a link or reference.

Whereas I sometimes have little choice but to use dry pressed crimps, I far prefer the folded crimp which provides an unbreakable attachment of the crimp to the wire. I would certainly break each joint with exposed conductors and slip a piece of adhesive filled shrinkwrap over each, at the same time giving each a good tug to check the wire is secure in the crimp.

Is there a wiring diagram - I note some cables are numbered ?

I don't like the heavy duty cable ties pulling lighter conductors out of their natural alignment immediately the wires exit the crimps.

If this were my boat I would try to trace out each cable and apply a mark of my own as part of an improvement to or creation of more detailed wiring diagrams. There is an excellent App for Mac users called Electric Design I would recommend for this purpose. I would certainly spend some time improving joint integrity, protection and security.

Finally I assume and certainly hope none of these are 240v !

 

[Elessar]

Hello,

I was wondering the committee's thoughts on my new-to-me boat's electrics. My feelings are that they are above average for a 25-year-old boat, probably because it was with a single owner that whole time.

These connectors look a bit basic and DIY, but I don't see an immediate need to to renew them - I think it's the sheer number of spade connectors that make them look so ugly (to my eye at least), but surely these are up to the job?

I'm inclined in future to use some of those connectors that heatshrink and solder in one. Assuming this proposal meets your approval, what should I heat them with? Gas-powered soldering iron?

• https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01J42LC92
• https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142800389928

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have.

They’ve been crimped with decent tools not a cheap Halfords tool or mole grips, so if they remain reliable don’t worry. (Edit I’ve just spotted some have been done with mole grips - give them a pull and see if they fall off)

When adding new or replacing them then the heat shrink terminals give a forever job. Note you need a different crimp tool as the sizes are slightly different. An in-line crimp when shrunk is so well sealed it can be used in a place that is permanently wet such as a shower sump.

I never solder joints when crimps are so easy (with proper ratchet tools) and have greater longevity as they don’t introduce hard spots.

A good kit to have onboard
https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/80-piece-heat-shrink-pre-insulated-crimp-terminal-kit.html

And the tool
https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/heat-shrink-terminal-ratchet-crimping-tool.html

I use a cheap barbecue lighter to shrink them - just keep it moving.

Another edit I also agree with superheat’s comments above. Folded crimps (another tool) are particularly useful when you want to put a multi connector in dry places.

Things like this https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/26-piece-multiple-connector-block-terminal-kit.html

 

[coopec]

Who is going to inspect the boat?

What legislation is this? Can you point me at a reference - thanks.

Maybe

Making Secure Connections
Which Is Better, Soldering or Crimping Terminals?
Most wire problems happen at the connections, and the experts are mostly in agreement on this one. Connections should be mechanically connected, not just soldered. Per ABYC (E-11.16.3.7), “Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit￾”. Further, crimping provides a solid mechanical connection resistant to “cold joints”￾ breaking under fatigue, and removes strain.


https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/is-electrical-soldering-allowed-on-boats.10445/

Boat Building Regulations | Boat Electrical Systems
newboatbuilders.com/pages/elect_a.html

Jan 10, 2017 - Wires should be supported using clips or straps, at least every 18 inches (45.5 cm), ... When you solder the wire it becomes essentially a solid single conductor wire. It forms ... Some marine wiring experts even advocate not using solder at all.

General wiring standards for boats in the US - an introduction to USCG ...
https://shop.pkys.com/wiring-standards.html

Nov 16, 2018 - Metals used for connections cannot be Aluminum or unplated Steel. Solder is permitted but cannot be the sole means of making the connection. ... Solder also tends to make the end of the wire into a solid wire as it wicks into the stranded conductors

WORTH READING THIS THREAD
http://www.ybw.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-446200.html

 

[[70521]]

Maybe

Making Secure Connections
Which Is Better, Soldering or Crimping Terminals?
Most wire problems happen at the connections, and the experts are mostly in agreement on this one. Connections should be mechanically connected, not just soldered. Per ABYC (E-11.16.3.7), “Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit￾”. Further, crimping provides a solid mechanical connection resistant to “cold joints”￾ breaking under fatigue, and removes strain.


https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/is-electrical-soldering-allowed-on-boats.10445/

Boat Building Regulations | Boat Electrical Systems
newboatbuilders.com/pages/elect_a.html

Jan 10, 2017 - Wires should be supported using clips or straps, at least every 18 inches (45.5 cm), ... When you solder the wire it becomes essentially a solid single conductor wire. It forms ... Some marine wiring experts even advocate not using solder at all.

General wiring standards for boats in the US - an introduction to USCG ...
https://shop.pkys.com/wiring-standards.html

Nov 16, 2018 - Metals used for connections cannot be Aluminum or unplated Steel. Solder is permitted but cannot be the sole means of making the connection. ... Solder also tends to make the end of the wire into a solid wire as it wicks into the stranded conductors

WORTH READING THIS THREAD
http://www.ybw.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-446200.html

Thanks for the links. Looks like non UK legislation and only applicable to new builds.

What really concerns me is the comment I have highlighted in red (rubbish if you are colour blind) that somebody might think that soldered wire might be a bad idea on a boat. I know I am a fussy old Safety Engineer but on what basis have they come to that opinion?

 

[Lon nan Gruagach]

Maybe

Making Secure Connections
Which Is Better, Soldering or Crimping Terminals?
Most wire problems happen at the connections, and the experts are mostly in agreement on this one. Connections should be mechanically connected, not just soldered. Per ABYC (E-11.16.3.7), “Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit￾”. Further, crimping provides a solid mechanical connection resistant to “cold joints”￾ breaking under fatigue, and removes strain.


https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/is-electrical-soldering-allowed-on-boats.10445/

Boat Building Regulations | Boat Electrical Systems
newboatbuilders.com/pages/elect_a.html

Jan 10, 2017 - Wires should be supported using clips or straps, at least every 18 inches (45.5 cm), ... When you solder the wire it becomes essentially a solid single conductor wire. It forms ... Some marine wiring experts even advocate not using solder at all.

General wiring standards for boats in the US - an introduction to USCG ...
https://shop.pkys.com/wiring-standards.html

Nov 16, 2018 - Metals used for connections cannot be Aluminum or unplated Steel. Solder is permitted but cannot be the sole means of making the connection. ... Solder also tends to make the end of the wire into a solid wire as it wicks into the stranded conductors

WORTH READING THIS THREAD
http://www.ybw.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-446200.html

Thanks for the links. Looks like non UK legislation and only applicable to new builds.

What really concerns me is the comment I have highlighted in red (rubbish if you are colour blind) that somebody might think that soldered wire might be a bad idea on a boat. I know I am a fussy old Safety Engineer but on what basis have they come to that opinion?

The recommendation is not to not use solder, but that if it is used then there should also be mechanical support.
I guess that if your joints are sufficiently supported mechanically then that support might as well be the electrical connection too, as in crimps.

 

[Bouba]

I was just about to order these
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Connector-Connectors-Terminals-Electrical-10White/dp/B01J42LC92
Self soldering joints
Has the panel got an opinion on them?

 

[jiris]

The recommendation is not to not use solder, but that if it is used then there should also be mechanical support.
I guess that if your joints are sufficiently supported mechanically then that support might as well be the electrical connection too, as in crimps.

I think the correct interpretation of the "not sole mean of making connection" is, the wires should be twisted (or hooked) together before soldering - as opposed to just putting them beside each other and solder. Just me thinking...

 

[doug748]

Hello,

I was wondering the committee's thoughts on my new-to-me boat's electrics. My feelings are that they are above average for a 25-year-old boat, probably because it was with a single owner that whole time.

These connectors look a bit basic and DIY, but I don't see an immediate need to to renew them - I think it's the sheer number of spade connectors that make them look so ugly (to my eye at least), but surely these are up to the job?

I'm inclined in future to use some of those connectors that heatshrink and solder in one.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have.​

Congratulations on the new boat.

I recognise, from experience, the heady stage of looking for problems to fix, this does not last long as quite soon they will be coming to find you
The wiring is probably fine and so is your idea for fitting new stuff.

I always add solder to those connectors and also use heat shrink to support the joint. Solder, in effect, tins the end of the cable, which is just the job if you use untinned wire.
You should use tinned cable but, you know, stuff happens. On a 25 year old boat you will probably find a lot of untinned stuff - maybe 100% on owner added bits and bobs.​

 

[DownWest]

Apologies if this coverered in links: Soldering creats a hard point outside the joint, concentrating the stress on the first bit of flexable wire. likely to fatigue more rapidly than flex into the connector. If properly supported beyond that point, then less likely to flex and fail.

 

[KompetentKrew]

Is there a wiring diagram - I note some cables are numbered ?

The PO has provided 3 folders fat with comprehensive documentation. Most manuals are in English, but all his own notes - yes, I'm sure there are full wiring diagrams - are in Dutch! ?

I don't like the heavy duty cable ties pulling lighter conductors out of their natural alignment immediately the wires exit the crimps.

Yes, I have left them loose.

If this were my boat I would try to trace out each cable and apply a mark of my own as part of an improvement to or creation of more detailed wiring diagrams.

Will do so in my Copious Free Time.

Finally I assume and certainly hope none of these are 240v !

Indeed they are not.

Congratulations on the new boat.

I recognise, from experience, the heady stage of looking for problems to fix, this does not last long as quite soon they will be coming to find you

Thank you. This is, in fact, already part of the backlog - I wrote this post days ago, but was unable to send due to poor mobile signal.

My to do list is overwhelming.

You should use tinned cable but, you know, stuff happens. On a 25 year old boat you will probably find a lot of untinned stuff - maybe 100% on owner added bits and bobs.

This is something I thought of, too - there certainly is plenty of untinned cable.

Thank you very much to all who replied. I will be following this thread, as it its already very interesting.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I've seen much worse than that, and on my own boat too .... if I have to replace, break, or extend wires I tend to use these for anything not carrying a large current ...

https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/1501

... with the appropriate crimp tools.

For higher power connections, one of these ...

https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/268

 

[greeny]

Just looking at picture 4 and wondering what the 2 red wires that seem to terminate at the bolt/setscrew mounted in wood are? My eyes are not great but I think I'd be investigating those.

 

[Elessar]

I was just about to order these
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Connector-Connectors-Terminals-Electrical-10White/dp/B01J42LC92
Self soldering joints
Has the panel got an opinion on them?

For all the reasons I said above I would not use these I’d use the crimps in the link I posted.

 

[Elessar]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I've seen much worse than that, and on my own boat too .... if I have to replace, break, or extend wires I tend to use these for anything not carrying a large current ...

https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/1501

... with the appropriate crimp tools.

For higher power connections, one of these ...

https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/268

Yes those top ones are good if you need a multi connector somewhere damp. Fiddly though.