Electric winches. Are they

[Anonymous]

Sounds really interesting. Do you remember the name of the supplier as several are showing up on Google and I can't see a winch adaptor. I'd prefer to use the people who managed to send to you without problems. Many thanks.

 

[Becky]

Thank you all for the information. The electric right angle drill adaption seems to be the thing, or the geared winch handle.

Will look into both of these

 

[eowyn]

Being cheapskates, we have adapted a Makita right angle drill and coupled it with a "winchbit" (www.winchbit.com) to produce a very effective solution. We had tried a rerchargeable drill but this was not man enough for the job so we power the Makita from our inverter. Total cost was £300!!! To see some photos etc. follow this link
http://blog.mailasail.com/eowyn/28

 

[tome]

Ouch - that's a very dangerous solution. Having a non-waterproof mains powerered tool in the cockpit is just asking for trouble

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe in UK waters unless the weather was fine - though an ELCB would help protect life - but in the Caribbean or the Med I don't see the problem in fine conditions.

 

[tome]

You must be joking - no non-marinised mains equipment has any place on the weather deck of a boat underway regardless of location

But don't let this stop you!

 

[Anonymous]

Why? I mean how do you see an accident happening? Is someone electrocuted? If so, how? Tripped up by the power cord?

 

[tome]

In the first instance, I think you mean RCB protection rather than the old ELCB. Neither device offers total protection against shock, and if you touch both phase (live) and neutral it offers no protection at all. You'll also notice that RCBs have a test button - this is for a very good reason. They fail

A single sea coming over whilst operating such a device could be enough to provide a lethal shock. Seawater is conductive and a deadly combination when mixed with mains voltages

So joke about tripping over the power cord by all means

 

[Fergus]

tools-plus.com
Milwaukee 0721-21 Right Angle Drill Kit
I had mine sent to a relative in the US and then on to me - it may attract import tax otherwise. Great piece of kit if on the heavy side! Uses are mansail hoisting, MOB recovery (by SWMBO if I fall overboard!), hoisting SWMBO up the mast and genny sheeting if I'm feeling lazy!

 

[Anonymous]

I wasn't joking about tripping over the cord - on a fine day with light-ish winds there certainly won't be any water in my 'cockpit'. Indeed, in goodness knows how many thousand miles of sailing I have never inadvertently had water in the cockpit and I doubt I will. If I did, I could easily pop the drill below. If one did get wet it would almost certainly trip the breaker before causing any harm to a person.

This business of the terminology - ELCB vs RCB, for donkeys years they have been made the same way, it is just the name that has changed. L and N are wound round a toroidal ferrite and if the currents are equal then the flux is zero. A sensing coil on the same core therefore gives a zero output. If some of the current goes straight down to earth (though a person, or simply a fault through the carpet, floor, etc.) then the currents in the L and N are not equal. This results in a net magnetic flux in the core and that results in an output from the sensing coil. It is that output from the sensing coil that trips the breaker. In terms of reliability they are highly reliable.

The chances of an ELCB/RCB suddenly failing when they need to protect human life without the defect having been detected as a result of regular tests (which is why there is a test button) are so tiny as to be ignored.

Subject to dry weather and commonsense, and remembering that these drills are 'doubly insulated' I think that it's a good suggestion and I might take it up myself.

 

[tome]

Please carry on, I've lost the will to live

Just hope nobody else is daft enough to take your advice

 

[rogerthebodger]

I agree with tome as a RCD will only trip if there is an earth path and being as most power dirlls are double insulated no earth.

I once droped my mains drill in the marina when powared by my honda generator. When I pulled it out by the by the power core I got a shock (silly me did not stop generator) along the rubber extension code. This happened as the neutrial line on the generator was not connected to the earth line of the power cord so the RCD did not trip as not alternate current path to neutral after the RCD.

 

[Anonymous]

That's very strange. If you go back to my explanation of how these breakers work you will see that no earth is needed. If the current going 'out' is not equal to the current coming 'back' then the device will trip. The difference is the fault current, which flows to earth, either via a person or a thing. In the case of a person, they get an electric shock. In the case of a thing, through that thing. The current level is set to a very small level - usually 30 thousandths of an Amp - which is deemed to be low enough to protect lives.

I can only imagine that in your case, either it was not wired in the L and N as it should have been, or it was faulty, because clearly if current went through your body it should have tripped the breaker.

 

[Anonymous]

just another thought....you could get a sub-lethal shock of, say 10mA which would give a nasty tingle, or shock, and that wouldn't trip the breaker. That is probably the most likely explanation because these breakers are designed to be very reliable and fail safe.

I would reiterate, though, no earth connection is required to any part of your system to make these breakers work. They work by sensing that no electricity has leaked away through faulty wiring, equipment, or people and if any electricity has 'leaked' then the breaker trips.

 

[eowyn]

Yes, we have RCB protection and do not have it in cockpit or on deck when it is raining. We are Carib based and it is fantastic for hoisting sails, getting the RIB on deck and furling.

Works for us!

 

[Anonymous]

Sure, used with commonsense it isn't a problem. They are used on building sites which are far wetter and more hazardous than a yacht in the Med or Carib

I'm not sure that it would be a lot of use in the UK, though, you'd never want to have it out in case of rain.

 

[tome]

[ QUOTE ]
building sites which are far wetter and more hazardous than a yacht

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you really are spouting bollx. Rainwater is not conductive, sea water is - so a building site is much less hazardous

I do hope nobody is taking your advice seriously

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
Now you really are spouting bollx. Rainwater is not conductive, sea water is - so a building site is much less hazardous

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, rainwater is quite conductive but that isn't relevant - most water on a building site comes from the city water supply or groundwater, both are highly conductive.

[ QUOTE ]
I do hope nobody is taking your advice seriously

[/ QUOTE ] I'm not giving 'advice'. I am stating the technical position and people can do as they please.

 

[ean_p]

Hi lemain
Goin back to thr RCD/ELCB, me thinks that ,though I could be wrong, if the genny is not grounded to the neutral and to the general mass of earth then the RCD will not work as the supply can only ever see a load ( one way out and one way back !) and has no notion of 'earth', which is in normal circumstances just an alternative return path. But if not connected to it then it don't exist. electricity has no intrinsic affinity to or notion of earth.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, you are talking about a 'floating' supply. You often arrange a floating supply on a building site by using a 1 to 1 isolating transformer. If you don't connect either terminal of the secondary to earth (or anything connected by some route to earth) then you can touch either terminal (but not both!) without any problems. That's why people use them.

A generator has coils much like a transformer in the alternator and the same applies to that.....if you don't connect either terminal to earth then your generator is floating, then you can touch either of the terminals (L or N) perfectly safely - but not both at the same time! If you bond the N of the genny to, say, ship's earth which might be seawater or it might be just the battery neutral, then if you touch the L terminal you will get the full 220V.

But beware, some generators link the chassis of the generator to the 12V negative terminal for the time the starter motor is running because the starter has a return in the engine chassis. If that relay fails to open you no longer have an isolated system (I have had that problem myself).

Now, regardless of how you have bonded your genny (and there is no absolutely 'right or wrong' way electrically speaking) you should still have an RCD in circuit - most people have a change over switch on their shore power system so it is the same RCD, consumer unit and breakers for both the genny and shore power.

Notwithstanding any of that, there are two types of electric shock - the type that passes through the body to earth and the type where your body touches two things at different voltages (e.g. putting one hand on L and one hand on N). Regardless of whether your system is earthed, an RCD will always prevent shocks due to current to earth even (if it isn't apparent how such a current can flow).

What an RCD can NEVER do is protect against putting one hand on L and one hand on N - indeed there is no difference between doing that and connecting any piece of electrical equipment across the supply.

I hope I've answered your question but it might help to re-read my explanation of how an RCD/ELCB actually works, a few messages back in this thread. It is difficult to answer this sort of question in a few lines as I don't know what you know and what you don't know about electricity and sorry if I am teaching my grandmother.... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif