Electric outboards

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Sailfish156

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Hi, I am looking for some advice on electric outboards. Driving force is prohibition of petrol o/bs on reservoirs but I would also like to use in the sea - either as a backup or on my inflatable tender.
Have been looking at Hummingbird catalogue from USA and they have white (salt water) and black (fresh water) ranges. From the warnings the implications is a black one will 'dissolve' if used in salt water. But with a salt water range they would say this - wouldn't they.
Does anyone have experience of how the standard models fair in salt water? Is it just a case of careful washing down after salt use or is the issue more serious. Comments please. Also any recommendations on makes/models?
Thanks
Phil - Sailfish156
 
Torqueedo did the job for us pushing a heavy 3m rib through chop for years but it’s made for the job and has a price to match.
 
Am I right in thinking you have a Sailfish 18? if that is the case that type of motor is of limited use as they do not provide enough power to do more than move at low speed. The drawback for a tender is that you need to provide an external battery and the range is limited by the capacity of the battery.

The only electric outboard that is usable as a real substitute for a petrol is the Torqeedo type, but as Rupert says it comes at a cost.

whether petrol or electric getting a motor to do both jobs well is impossible because the requirements are so different (power, range, shaft size ).
 
RupertW said:
Torqueedo did the job for us pushing a heavy 3m rib through chop for years but it’s made for the job and has a price to match.
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Very pleased with the torquedo and the high initial price is offset by lack of servicing costs and gummed up carbs, unless you are handy at DIY, no range issues, no petrol smell, lighter and instant starting! the way to go
 
All the electric outboards I have seen eem to have very long shafts which make them rather ‘strange’ to use on a small inflatable or dinghy.
Unless there is some technical reason which I can’t see there must be a market for short shaft electric outboards?
 
Praxinoscope said:
All the electric outboards I have seen eem to have very long shafts which make them rather ‘strange’ to use on a small inflatable or dinghy.
Unless there is some technical reason which I can’t see there must be a market for short shaft electric outboards?
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They're primarily designed as trolling motors, to be deck-mounted on small fishing boats, hence the long shafts.
 
pvb said:
They're primarily designed as trolling motors, to be deck-mounted on small fishing boats, hence the long shafts.
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But surely the market is big enough to look at producing them for dinghy’s, I currently have a 2hp Mercury which eventually will need changing and a short shaft electric would be a very good replacement, I can’t be the only one.
 
Praxinoscope said:
But surely the market is big enough to look at producing them for dinghy’s, I currently have a 2hp Mercury which eventually will need changing and a short shaft electric would be a very good replacement, I can’t be the only one.
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The market would be big if an effective motor could be produced at a lower price. However, nobody has achieved that yet - the nearest is the Torqeedo which is a viable alternative to a petrol motor, but at nearly twice the price.

As pvb says the trolling motors are not designed for dinghies as in most cases they do not have enough power and they need a heavy and inconvenient external 12v battery. Some people are prepared to live with the limitations as you will see from the many threads over the years here, but it is a very small minority.

So, it is not just the shaft length because you can adjust some to run at any depth - it is just the basic design is not suitable. These things have been on the market for over 40 years - I first saw them in the US in the 1970s and although they have improved in many ways they are still primarily trolling motors for freshwater fishing boats in the US - for which there is a very big market.
 
I agree therice at the moment is a big turn off, but surely the market is so large that economies of manufacturing scale would be achieved if some enterprising company took the market seriously.
Basically what is needed is the equivalent of a Seagull featherlight at a price of a about £400. Li-on rechargeable batteries that clip on like a power tool battery so you can have a spare in the dinghy.
I would suggest it was a project for Dyson with his digital motors, but his kit would come out too costly. No doubt at some point the Chinese will see the market.
 
Praxinoscope said:
I agree therice at the moment is a big turn off, but surely the market is so large that economies of manufacturing scale would be achieved if some enterprising company took the market seriously.
Basically what is needed is the equivalent of a Seagull featherlight at a price of a about £400. Li-on rechargeable batteries that clip on like a power tool battery so you can have a spare in the dinghy.
I would suggest it was a project for Dyson with his digital motors, but his kit would come out too costly. No doubt at some point the Chinese will see the market.
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As I said these motors have been around for over 40 years and nobody has managed to turn them into a viable product for use on dinghies (for which the market is nowhere near as massive as you might think). The problem is not the motor but the battery. Just look at the price of Torqeedo battery packs.

Trolling motors are cheap because their main market is for use on boats where the electricity is provided by the boat's battery having been charged by the main engine. So they are just a cheap low powered motor, plastic prop, a tube to carry the wire, a simple bracket and a controller. For an independent supply to give a decent range you need an 80-100AH lead acid. Would you want one of those in your inflatable? Never mind lifting in and out and then recharging it.

BTW they are now mostly made in China. If there had been a market with needs that could be met economically somebody would have done it. Of course this may change in the future IF the price of compact easily chargeable battery packs falls. To an extent this has already happened because in the 10 years or so that the Torqeedo has been on the market, battery capacity has more than doubled and price has more or less stayed the same.
 
Praxinoscope said:
All the electric outboards I have seen eem to have very long shafts which make them rather ‘strange’ to use on a small inflatable or dinghy.
Unless there is some technical reason which I can’t see there must be a market for short shaft electric outboards?
Click to expand...


The only ones I've seen or used seem to be the right length for inflatables and I assume they're the short shaft model. I know what you mean but I suspect the shafts just look longer because the thing is pretty much all shaft apart from the comparatively small battery on top and the motor at the bottom of the leg.
 
No personal experience but I've been keeping an eye on them in case my current 2-stroke is banned or dies. At the southampton boat show this year one dealer was pushing epropulsion outboards as an alternative to toquedo:
http://www.epropulsion.com/spirit

Let's hope their outboards perform a bit better than their web site

Sailfish156 said:
Does anyone have experience of how the standard models fair in salt water?
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Again no but torquedo do have a page on corrosion:
https://www.torqeedo.com/en/technology-and-environment/corrosion-protection.html

The blurb for the epropulsion unit says it's "designed for salt water" which that chap promoting it at southampton stressed.
 
The epropulsion outboard is really very good
http://www.epropulsion.com/spirit

I have used one several times on a variety of small RIBs in tidal water. It is not particularly fast, though it is quite fast enough for me, but it has really impressive torque which comes on immediately. The silence is an absolute blessing. The ability to break it in to pieces to stow or to move is a godsend. There is no smell. You can hang it upside down if you like, it doesn’t care. It doesn’t drip anything except water in the boot. It starts STRAIGHT AWAY HAHAHAH. You don’t have to service it, lube it, blow down its precious little tubes or kick it. There is a price to pay, but this is a really good piece of kit. It won’t replace a petrol outboard in all use cases but it certainly will in many.
PM me if you’d like to discuss more. I am not a dealer and I don’t have one to sell
Graham
 
Tranona, I usually recognise a great deal of accuracy in your posts, on this subject however I think you may be not looking at this from the ponit of view of how things are moving.
Battery technology is advancing rapidly, there are so many moves by governments of all persuasions to move us towards ‘eco’ options and we already have restrictions on our outboards in that we can’t buy a new 2 stroke engine, which was the best option for the small 1.5 - 2hp market, they are relatively light, more efficient than a 4 stroke and cheaper to produce.
I’m not sure that for this market battery life is such a major problem, what is the average run for a small dinghy mounted engine, most of the use is to get to and from ones boat to the shore and back often a distance of not more than 2 or 3 cables, even a longer run is not usually more than would consume much more than a carbureter or two of fuel there and back.
I agree that current electric outboards are primarily designed for trolling and perhaps not as efficient as they could be, but the technology of battery/motor technology has changed considerably over the last 5 years and there are further advances which seem to be on the forseable horizon.
The advantages that could be achieved in manufacturing electric outboards include, the potential for injection moulding of components, fewer precision components required and simpler automated assembly.
The Torqeedo is perhaps the route to go, their short shaft model mirrors a short shaft petrol outboard, but there is absolutely no justification for it’s price range, it also needs a radical redesign to make it a more sensible option and suitable for mass production. The Minn Kota models exemplify what I originally commented upon, that the shaft length which is adjustable for depth, are considerably cheaper, but do require a separate battery and don’t have the power of the torqeedo and don’t have a short shaft option.
 
Praxinoscope said:
Tranona, I usually recognise a great deal of accuracy in your posts, on this subject however I think you may be not looking at this from the ponit of view of how things are moving.
Battery technology is advancing rapidly, there are so many moves by governments of all persuasions to move us towards ‘eco’ options and we already have restrictions on our outboards in that we can’t buy a new 2 stroke engine, which was the best option for the small 1.5 - 2hp market, they are relatively light, more efficient than a 4 stroke and cheaper to produce.
I’m not sure that for this market battery life is such a major problem, what is the average run for a small dinghy mounted engine, most of the use is to get to and from ones boat to the shore and back often a distance of not more than 2 or 3 cables, even a longer run is not usually more than would consume much more than a carbureter or two of fuel there and back.
I agree that current electric outboards are primarily designed for trolling and perhaps not as efficient as they could be, but the technology of battery/motor technology has changed considerably over the last 5 years and there are further advances which seem to be on the forseable horizon.
The advantages that could be achieved in manufacturing electric outboards include, the potential for injection moulding of components, fewer precision components required and simpler automated assembly.
The Torqeedo is perhaps the route to go, their short shaft model mirrors a short shaft petrol outboard, but there is absolutely no justification for it’s price range, it also needs a radical redesign to make it a more sensible option and suitable for mass production. The Minn Kota models exemplify what I originally commented upon, that the shaft length which is adjustable for depth, are considerably cheaper, but do require a separate battery and don’t have the power of the torqeedo and don’t have a short shaft option.
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You are only agreeing with me.

The big "IFs" are battery capacity and potential sales.

The fact that it is a niche manufacturer that is the only one who has attempted to address this market is an indicator of its lack of attractiveness in terms of potential volume and then profits.

I have been watching this technology and market for as long as it has been around and listened to all the people who tell me it is just about to happen - for 40 years. Marine propulsion is only ever a spin off from automotive and industrial/agricultural technologies and there is little in the current developments in those areas now that has a real connection with small engines for dinghies.

The Torqeedo is expensive for exactly this reason. To adapt the technology to the distinct requirements of the market is very expensive. Everything is specific to this application. As I said it has been on the market for over 10 years now and nobody (except a spin off from the same group of people) has tried to enter the market. This tells you a lot.

BTW I would be very surprised if Dyson has not already looked at this market - and rejected it as being too difficult and with too little potential to justify the R&D required - never mind the effort to establish the product in such a small and fragmented market.
 
I read this thread with growing interest, and then looked to see just how "expensive" these things are.
Even in this cynical world of frequent grotesque overcharging for utterly ordinary products I was simply gobsmacked.
£1300 for a 3hp electric outboard? £7000 for a 20Hp? Who on earth pays that sort of money? How can a 20Hp electric motor on a stick cost the same a mightily complex 3 cylinder Yanmar? How can they justify that?

Someone's having a laugh - at our expense.
 
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Old Bumbulum said:
I read this thread with growing interest, and then looked to see just how "expensive" these things are.
Even in this cynical world of frequent grotesque overcharging for utterly ordinary products I was simply gobsmacked.
£1300 for a 3hp electric outboard? £7000 for a 20Hp? Who on earth pays that sort of money? How can a 20Hp electric motor on a stick cost the same a mightily complex 3 cylinder Yanmar? How can they justify that?

Someone's having a laugh - at our expense.
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Nobody is laughing. Look at any small volume product using these technologies and you will find the same - are you also laughing at a a Nissan Leaf at £10k premium over a petrol equivalent and maker losing money on every one?

The electric "boom" for boats is in Germany because of the steady banning of petrol engines on European lakes (now starting in UK, hence this thread) and it is currently a low volume niche market.

The new boat market can stand in some ways this premium, but these products are simply not attractive to markets like ours where there is a surplus of suitable alternatives at a fraction of the price.

New cheaper electric products will only come when the use of fossil fuels for marine propulsion are banned. When (and if, which is highly unlikely) that happens you will see an explosion of new products.
 
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