"Education not Legislation"

Doghousekeeper

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\"Education not Legislation\"

The mantra of the RYA for as long as we can remember - but is it really the best option?

Last night I watched a small (about 20ft) yacht come storming up to a slipway, doing 16+ knots with the benefit of a 60hp outboard weighing down the back end. Failing to stop quite soon enough, he rammed the slip, leaving a significant amount of his gelcoat embellishing the concrete. Backing off, he tried again, and missed the slip altogether. 3rd time lucky, he got close enough for his crew to leap ashore ... almost. Fortunately, the water wasn't deep, and the boat wasn't close enough to squash the poor wet unfortunate against the hard stuff. By that time I'd got myself down to the slip and took a line, which the skipper then swung completely around on with his 60 horses revving away until the prop found it was no match for the rocks underneath at which point it coughed nastily and went quiet. Half an hour later, we had the engine running again, and the rest of the crew ashore (they seemed in quite a hurry to come off, for some reason). The skipper planned to take the boat out to a visitor mooring, and at the last moment remembered that he would need some means to get himself ashore. Young crew member dispatched with car key to collect "dinghy" which turned out to be a paddling-pool toy bought in the final death-throws of Woolies. Wind has been picking up and is now blowing a steady F5, but skipper is determined that he can cope with mooring up and getting safely ashore. Several interested spectators by now, one of whom has the Coastguard number just one press away on his mobile phone. Another phone call rather judiciously alerted a friendly local with a RIB who turned up to help after the hapless skipper had spent almost 40 minutes trying to pick up his mooring. 10 minutes later, with everything now under control, the RIB delivered the skipper back to shore. Wife was overheard suggesting to skipper that perhaps he should get some training. Response: "There's no need - you don't have to have training in this country"

OK. True and accurate. There is still no requirement to be trained - but is that still the most appropriate response?

What do you think??
 
Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

Mandatory training is, in my opinion, dangerous.

In other countries which have compulsory training the level is set around the level of the ICC.
In my humble opinion this is not a sufficient level to cope with the demands of sailing and boating in UK waters.

And it's a psycological thing that if you have the "legally required" qualification very few people go on to take further training.
How many people go on to take the advanced driving qualification after passing their driving test....?

Unfortunately idiots as described by the OP may eventually bring legislation on us.
 
Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

[ QUOTE ]
Mandatory training is, in my opinion, dangerous.

How many people go on to take the advanced driving qualification after passing their driving test....?


[/ QUOTE ]

But if we follow your logic, we would remove the driving test and make learning to drive a car voluntary. Or maybe not all mandatory training is dangerous???
 
Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

There is zero evidence that legislation of any sort will make boating safer in the UK.... our accident statistics are excellent in comparison to other countries which have strong legislation and training requirments. The comparison with driving is just silly.
 
Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

The driving test is of a good standard, and has been progressively made harder over the years since its introduction. And even then it's not perfect, you only have to open a local paper to see another example of a young (usually male) driver having been given false confidence by the award of a liscence, and then finding themselves caught out by something they haven't encountered before.

The same cannot be said of the ICC, which is a significant step DOWN from the level that the RYA regard as the minimum qualification to use the word "skipper" - day skipper.

Can you see the "legally required" test being set at a level equivalent to DS? I can't. And I think that it would give a lot of false confidence to people new to the sport who have "passed the test" and then head out into waters unsuitable for their experience level.
 
Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

[ QUOTE ]
The comparison with driving is just silly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes indeed, but nonetheless a fair response to "Mandatory training is dangerous" /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I wonder if anyone has analysed the accident stats to see how they correlate with training or qualifications. I have a sneaky suspicion that people with no training are more likely to have accidents than people who have had at least some training
 
Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

It's his boat and his issue...what it's got to do with the government I've no idea...?
 
Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

[ QUOTE ]
In other countries which have compulsory training the level is set around the level of the ICC.
In my humble opinion this is not a sufficient level to cope with the demands of sailing and boating in UK waters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Strange thought process, and why should we follow other countries examples?

Based on what you say, the legislation should be for training to a sufficient level to cope with the demands etc.... and not, no training.

Fortunately, it would seem that the guy in the OPs post is in the minority.
 
Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

[ QUOTE ]

The same cannot be said of the ICC, which is a significant step DOWN from the level that the RYA regard as the minimum qualification to use the word "skipper" - day skipper.

Can you see the "legally required" test being set at a level equivalent to DS? I can't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, actually - yes I can see that. The RYA tell me that is exactly the level that ICC is benchmarked against /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In other countries which have compulsory training the level is set around the level of the ICC.
In my humble opinion this is not a sufficient level to cope with the demands of sailing and boating in UK waters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Strange thought process, and why should we follow other countries examples?

Based on what you say, the legislation should be for training to a sufficient level to cope with the demands etc.... and not, no training.
.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say we should, but that governments being governments, we undoubtably would.

I still haven't made up my mind on if liscencing in itself would be bad for boating if applied at a appropriate level, but I believe that any government would addopt the ICC if they decide to go down that route, as it is a pre existing, Europe-wide, qualification.
And it is that which I think would be dangerous.
 
Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

[quoteI believe that any government would addopt the ICC if they decide to go down that route, as it is a pre existing, Europe-wide, qualification.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, wrong again. It's only those countries which have signed up to Resolution 40 that recognise the ICC.
 
Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

Its not only bad drving we need to address I was in Brighton a couple of weeks ago, watched a boat leave the marina with all onboard including helm with beer bottle in hand my thoughts apart from the obvious were thats such actions attract unwelcome attention and then eventually legislation.................when will we learn
 
Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

One problem is that without some minimum education or examination, a certain number of skippers are not aware that there are rules for avoiding collisions.

So, if we don't have some sort of minimum standard set by exam or certificate, the minimum should be compulsory third party insurance. Perhps for over a certain power or size.
 
Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

And you could say that the ICCis better than nothing. It might only be a day for the exam but, if you know nothing, then I would think a 5 day course might be necessary to go from zero to hero.... maybe even more?

In fact, the more I think about it, to be able to do all the stuff on the ICC, it might be necessary to be pretty close to Day Skipper.

Navigation, sailing on different points, picking up a buoy, berthing in the marina, tides, Rules, safety.

If somebody had all of these under their belt, they would probably be quite competent, and at least they guy in the OP would be able to be so blase.

Cheers

Richard
 
Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

Yep, I think I'm with you on that thinking Richard .

Even if ICC assessment is "only a day" (considerably more than the driving test, of course) the learning time to get to a point where you could pass it must be quite substantial
 
Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

[ QUOTE ]
a certain number of skippers are not aware that there are rules for avoiding collisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

..and yet collisions on the sea involving cruising yachts are almost non existent. Even in the busy Solent it's very rare.

Which suggests it's perfectly possible to go boating safely with nothing more than a bit of common sense (as Hoseasons and Blakes will tell you).

Which boats would need a qualification and which wouldn't? Would a qualification be required to sail an RS600 off a beach with swimmers about? How about a Westerley 25? Would children be allowed to sail dinghies? Kite surfers? Who has to have the qualification? The guy on the helm? Everyone on the boat?

Finally anyone who thinks that RYA qualified sailors are all competent obviously hasn't sailed with many. I bet the guy in the OP would have no problem at all getting an ICC. I also bet he'd get the hang of boating in no time at all, sounds like he's already learned a lot of lessons.
 
Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

Even with legislation governing the use of the motor car we still get joy riding. Who will police the maritime legislation? I can not remember the last time I saw a uniformed policeman. It has got to be at least a month ago and that was at Manchester airport!
 
Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

I am not in any way a fan the snide superiority imbedded in your post. Have you never in all your experience f u c k e d up? I know I have.
 
Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

The short answer is there is no correlation. Accidents that result in injury and loss of life are so rare in comparison with the level of activity, and so different it is only possible to identify common events leading up to incidents.

The sort of incident you report is probably very common, but does not result in any reportable outcome and is therefore not recorded by anyone. Therefore no "statistics" can be collected.

As others have observed, this is part of the process of learning. Sensible people will take note or withdraw from the activity. Non sensible people are unlikely to be influenced by compulsory training.
 
Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

[ QUOTE ]
I am not in any way a fan the snide superiority imbedded in your post. Have you never in all your experience f u c k e d up? I know I have.

[/ QUOTE ]

???
 
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