Easy Start

Lady Campanula

Lady Campanula

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I've always had the notion, in an ill-defined sort of way, that using an 'explosive' start-assistance inlet spray in starting a yottie marine diesel was likely to cause damage. Pat Manley, for example, in his cockpit book 'Diesels', agrees and warns.

A boat-owning friend always uses it, and 'poo-poos' the warning.

But what IS the real likelihood of damage and to WHAT?

:)
 
easy start

Ask your mate to start up without easy start. Make sure you have a spare battery and a charger to charge the flat one. In 5/6 hours you will then need the easy start, or you could have a rebore and new pistons in the meantime.
 
I think it may be OK to use in extremis, in an emergency, but if you have to use the stuff every time there is clearly a problem with the engine. Apart from the real risk of starting a fire, there may be issues with upper cylinder lubrication and sudden shock loads on con rods and crankshafts. However, marine diesels are pretty rugged items and will put up with far more abuse than a more sophisticated automobile engine.
 
Lady Campanula said:
I've always had the notion, in an ill-defined sort of way, that using an 'explosive' start-assistance inlet spray in starting a yottie marine diesel was likely to cause damage. Pat Manley, for example, in his cockpit book 'Diesels', agrees and warns.

A boat-owning friend always uses it, and 'poo-poos' the warning.

But what IS the real likelihood of damage and to WHAT?

:)
Click to expand...


People seem to say it damages pistons, rings etc due to a fierce uncontrolled explosion in the chamber, (or somethign similar to that) not sure i believe it, wouldnt use it ever on a new engine under warranty or anything that shouldn't need it.....but if i had a 25year old engine that wouldnt start in the depths of winter, and did with a bit of East Start, i wouldnt worry about it at all.

Had an old 2 stroke rotivator, wouldnt start without it, but engine lasted 8years, the rest of machine fell apart so no real evidence it did much harm to that.
 
mattnj said:
People seem to say it damages pistons, rings etc due to a fierce uncontrolled explosion in the chamber, (or somethign similar to that) not sure i believe it, wouldnt use it ever on a new engine under warranty or anything that shouldn't need it.....but if i had a 25year old engine that wouldnt start in the depths of winter, and did with a bit of East Start, i wouldnt worry about it at all.

Had an old 2 stroke rotivator, wouldnt start without it, but engine lasted 8years, the rest of machine fell apart so no real evidence it did much harm to that.
Click to expand...


Easy start in a petrol engine with a lower compression ratio is less likely to do damage than in a diesel engine with a much higher compression ratio.

Diesel engines are extremely highly stressed under normal running IE when running on correctly timed injection. Introduce easy start type fluids (ether based low flash point) and you now have an engine with untimed injection as ignition occurs as soon as the cylinder reaches the necessary temperature which can be much too early. This means that a much higher than designed pressure can be achieved in the combustion space and in extreme cases this can be sufficient to stretch the head studs and allow an ongoing problem to start with head joints unless the stretched studs are dealt with. Another problem is that the ignition with ether is much faster and so more violent and it is this shock which has probably caused ring failure on some older engines.

If you have no other option then use it in minute quantities and without sparaying directly into the inlet. Better still try squirting some engine oil into the inlet port . This may seal things up and the engine will be correctly timed.

Another less violent alternative believe it or not is WD 40 !!
 
I've used it on occasion for engines that were reluctant to start, usually following surgery, and it certainly causes some horrendous knocking. Presumably, it's firing too soon, so it's trying to push down on a piston that's still coming up, which is certainly something I'd prefer not to have happen too often.

OTOH, I suspect that the "addiction" is because the engine's in a bad way, so you need easy start, which works, so the problems don't get fixed, so the engine continues to deteriorate, so the engine's in a worse way, so you need easy start, which works, so the problems don't get fixed, so . . .

I have a can on board for emergencies, but it's got to be ten years old, and rusty enough I probably ought to get rid of it in the not too distant future, so I'm probably not overdoing it!
 
air (hair dryer)

We used to start the fork lift by warming the inlet manifold with a warm air dryer, and progressed through to a plumbers gas gun, but still needed a stand-by battery in the winter. It worked for years like that, but sods law is when you really need it KAPUTT!!
 
Bilgediver said:
Diesel engines are extremely highly stressed under normal running IE when running on correctly timed injection.
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Really? Thats what they are designed to do and do so for thousands and thousands of hours at a rate of thousands of times a minute....no big deal

Remember it only "fires" on the easy start once or maybe twice before it is all gone, to spin the engine up, its not like its going to run on easy start at full load and rpm for a few hours, that would of course be a disaster.

in my opinion, firing a couple of times (early and knocking) a couple of times every now and again to start an engine and solve a problem, just not a big deal.

As i said earlier, i would never use it on a newer engine, fix the issue instead!
 
The difference between using a starting fluid in petrol engines and diesel engines is:
It is ignited by the spark in a petrol engine ... it can be a weak spark but nevertheless it is the spark that ignites it. Ignition occurs therefore at the right point in the cycle.

It is ignited in a diesel engine when the temperature produced by the compression reaches a high enough value ... You have no control over the point in the compression stroke when this occurs. If the compression is good enough it can occur very early with the potential to cause mechanical damage.

It can be very dangerous to use it in an engine with manifold heaters

Its use in 2 stroke petrol engines is not good because it contains no oil.

The suggestion that engines become addicted to it is of course a complete load of cobblers. people just keep using it instead of sorting out what is wrong.
 
The JCB 3C with the Leyland tractor skid actually came from the factory with a "start pilot" system, which really was just a way to inject a measured amount of ether (ie easystart) with a plunger in the cab.

mf35-23Cstpilot.jpg
like this which is original equipment on a Massey Ferguson tractor.

I think in reality the 'addiction' means that engines which are no longer starting readily don't get repaired, but ether is used, and as the wear or other problem gets worse they definitely won't start without it.
 
VicS said:
The difference between using a starting fluid in petrol engines and diesel engines is:
It is ignited by the spark in a petrol engine ... it can be a weak spark but nevertheless it is the spark that ignites it. Ignition occurs therefore at the right point in the cycle.

It is ignited in a diesel engine when the temperature produced by the compression reaches a high enough value ... You have no control over the point in the compression stroke when this occurs. If the compression is good enough it can occur very early with the potential to cause mechanical damage.
Click to expand...

Think everyone understands that, the grey area is if it causes any damage and why should it, no different to an engine misfiring badly in my book, had all sorts of engines, 2 stroke 4 stroke, diesel mis-fire, crank over backwards, cough and splutter, often happens when you rebuild them, cam timing completely out, distributer in wrong place and all sorts of other mistakes, i just dont see the worry about damage is that great, anything is possible of course, could blow the block in half, but in realilty IMO just may fire a bit early, and knock for a second on start up?

it can definatley help start an otherwise not starting engine, so can be doing anything that bad...

Dont get me wrong i dont use the stuff, and have only a few times in the past, just dont think its as evil as people make out.
 
Surely a diesel is designed to withstand shock stresses when starting anyway?
Some engines start with a terrific bang and a clatter in the normal way.
Think of getting an engine spinning on decompression and then suddenly releasing the lever - there will be injected fuel present from the previous rotation in any case, so ignition might occur at any point when the compression is sufficient.
 
mattnj said:
Think everyone understands that, the grey area is if it causes any damage and why should it, no different to an engine misfiring badly in my book, had all sorts of engines, 2 stroke 4 stroke, diesel mis-fire, crank over backwards, cough and splutter, often happens when you rebuild them, cam timing completely out, distributer in wrong place and all sorts of other mistakes, i just dont see the worry about damage is that great, anything is possible of course, could blow the block in half, but in realilty IMO just may fire a bit early, and knock for a second on start up?

it can definatley help start an otherwise not starting engine, so can be doing anything that bad...

Dont get me wrong i dont use the stuff, and have only a few times in the past, just dont think its as evil as people make out.
Click to expand...

A bit like smoking really, quite harmless.
 
cliffordpope said:
Surely a diesel is designed to withstand shock stresses when starting anyway?
Some engines start with a terrific bang and a clatter in the normal way.
Think of getting an engine spinning on decompression and then suddenly releasing the lever - there will be injected fuel present from the previous rotation in any case, so ignition might occur at any point when the compression is sufficient.
Click to expand...

very good point
 
Just looked at the u tube clip.

In this day of computer monitored engine management I was surprised to hear the engine alarm persisting after the V8 had blown up. It would only take a few lines of code to stop the alarm sounding.

73s de

Johnth
 
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