E-Loran

[Marsali_1]

Nobody is going to go.to all the bother to lure a pleasure yacht into some kind of trouble

I think it has been acknowledged several times, above, that the "baddies" are not interesting in sending pleasure boaters astray.

 

[Dockhead]

I'm still unconvinced by the backpack. I'm sure it's possible but you still need line of sight and you're advertising your position to the world.

Yes, commercial ships (and aircraft?) will likely have terrestrial low‑frequency radio navigation receivers before long but that's not what YBW is about.

I absolutely did mean smashing them up with missiles. By the time you've got aircraft circling the UK slowing down amazon deliveries things are already pretty much open warfare.

Ah, right. Now I got the missile reference. Yes, that's right, I think.

You don't need to think about the backpacks as a theory -- there are real cases. I linked to a series of cases of jammers carried in cars and pickup trucks. And those were just some idiots with some garage-built rigs, not actual malicious actors. Yes, you can find the transmitters eventually with RDF, but I linked to a real case which took months to catch. When they're mobile and intermittent, it's not indeed simple at all. You can get plenty of line of site from a hilltop of clifftop, and certainly from a weather balloon or fixed wing drone which any teenager can assemble in his garage.

Finding the weather balloon with the jammer is great, but you didn't thereby find the person who launched it. And to bring it down out of the stratosphere will take a multimillion dollar missile. Meanwhile the bad actor can launch more and more and more of them -- they cost £500 each or whatever. This is a really serious threat to our GNSS-centric society where a vast proportion of what makes our civilization run, depends on this single point of vulnerability.

But no, not so much to us in our little yachts.

 

[Mark-1]

Encrypted signals -- if that's what you're talking about -- solves the problem of forging signals, but does not solve the problem of meaconing. You're right of course that military GNSS is more robust than what everyone else gets, even airliners.

I'd never heard of meaconing but according to google it isn't really spoofing and according to Google in practice you get wild changes in cog/sog/Position rather than credible misleading that could guide you into trouble.

I'm not sure if they encrypt the whole signal or.just some kind of one way decodable ID. Either way, you can't spoof signed GNSS data so spoofing is a solved problem as someone claimed. Not that I accept it would be a problem even without a technical solution for reasons I've probably over communicated.

Jamming isn't a solved problem, but not one that bothers me very much.

 

[Mark-1]

I think it has been acknowledged several times, above, that the "baddies" are not interesting in sending pleasure boaters astray.

I'd agree the baddies are not interesting in sending pleasure boaters astray. I certainly didn't get the memo that this thread wasn't about leisure boaters. If it's actually about aviation, amazon delivery drivers and commercial shipping it would be better topic for the lounge (Unless it's current affairs. )

 

[Dockhead]

I'd agree the baddies are not interesting in sending pleasure boaters astray. I certainly didn't get the memo that this thread wasn't about leisure boaters. If it's actually about aviation, amazon delivery drivers and commercial shipping it would be better topic for the lounge (Unless it's current affairs. )

How governments are responding to the issue is driven by its effect on the economy, and on commercial navigation and air safety, so naturally what happens to Amazon trucks and airliners is relevant to the question of what can we expect in our own domain.

I think we all agree that it's not really a life and death question for us, but that presumes that we keep up our nav skills. I do know not a few sailors who don't, or who never learned in the first place, so all the more, it's worth discussion and raising awareness.

 

[st599]

How governments are responding to the issue is driven by its effect on the economy, and on commercial navigation and air safety, so naturally what happens to Amazon trucks and airliners is relevant to the question of what can we expect in our own domain.

I think we all agree that it's not really a life and death question for us, but that presumes that we keep up our nav skills. I do know not a few sailors who don't, or who never learned in the first place, so all the more, it's worth discussion and raising awareness.

For a yachtsman, the effects of over-reliance on GNSS within critical national infrastructure such as comms, food logistics and finance are probably more of a worry than finding the entrance to Cowes.

 

[lustyd]

Laundry is probably my biggest worry. Converting notes to coins for laundry being second and finding usable gas a close third. GNSS failure probably wouldn’t make the top 100.

 

[Dockhead]

For a yachtsman, the effects of over-reliance on GNSS within critical national infrastructure such as comms, food logistics and finance are probably more of a worry than finding the entrance to Cowes.

Depends on the yachtsman, probably!