E-Borders ditched?

photodog said:
Thats the problem... they will just ignore the law until it has been tested in the European court.... so someone will have to be prosecuted... and then take it the court... before it gets chucked out. Could be years. And unless one of the big carriers do it, it may never get tested.
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I've only skim read the report but there do seem to be a lot more groups against this than just recreational boaters. It's going to cost companies real money so maybe that will prevail over common sense - or more likely it will only be implemented for rec. boats as we don't have the lobby that the airlines do.
 
I know it is only the Daily Mail ...

Sinc said:
Basic question I know - but does this select committee have any executive authority over UKBA or does it simply advise? If the latter there's no real reason to believe that they will stop just because they are advised to.
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...but it does seem that the Home Officehas already abandoned the parts of the E-Borders scheme that would have applied to yachts containing EU residents

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Crackdown-hopelessly-diluted-meet-EU-law.html
 
Quote: Major Catastrophe: "We are not a special case, but it is OUR country and not a prison."

Get out of here Major! It's NOT our country, it's theirs! Meaning the faceless ones who run big business, and therefore control the money and therefore our government. We have 50%, they say, of the worlds CCTV cameras watching our every move in this tiny country. As far as this government is concerned if you are an adult or a teacher you're almost certainly a paedophile who has to have a thorough background check before you can possibly be allowed to take your neighbour's kids to school. You are the property of the state, your birth certificate says so and your parents gave you away when they registered your birth, and you are only allowed your "freedom" so you can make a profit for UK PLC. We are not our "own", we belong to them until the day we die, try looking up High Courts, Magistrates Courts, Police service, UK Government etc on tpuc's site here: http://www.tpuc.org/content/hall-shame

That pushed my buttons! Ah well, back to my bowl of gruel before the next stint!
 
e borders

Two weeks ago I got on a plane in Vienna, flew, via Berlin to Gothenberg, hired a car, drove to Oslo, stayed one night and then came back. NO PASSPORT.

I really can't deal with the people who are so blinkered to the reality of Europe. It works, and the safeguards for individual rights are much better than in the UK. this business about vetting and keeping records of people interacting with children are completely illegal in Germany for example, and they really know what the "big Brother" state can do.

The Current crop of politicians are frankly appalling. The claim that "control of borders" catches criminals is of course true, but notice that they don't give any figures on how many drugs or illegal immigrants have been seized since they started random searches of small yachts?

finally, can anybody tell me the cost of operating one of the motherships and RIB teams actually costs per year? I think we have a right to known.
 
I really can't deal with the people who are so blinkered to the reality of Europe. It works, and the safeguards for individual rights are much better than in the UK. this business about vetting and keeping records of people interacting with children are completely illegal in Germany for example, and they really know what the "big Brother" state can do.



I agree with this 100%. We seem to get all the disadvantages of being in Euro land... but none of the advantages.... The only thing that I can see preventing this country from falling into a paranoid dictatorial state behind a Burberry Curtain, is the EU.

Its time we rid ourselves of this ridiculous situation and simply signed up to the Schenegen agreement and saved ourselves all of this grief and money.
 
The UK government is applying rules on the import of cigs and booze which are against the principle (and EU law) of free movement of goods and people around the EU.

The EU seems to have turned a blind eye to this.
 
Seven Spades said:
The Government has de-bunked this story.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/s.../2009/december/eu-confirms-e-Borders-is-legal
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I'm sure "Comedy Phil" has been instructed to issue this by his PPS as a holding tactic, as after all, general public knowledge of this will result in (more) instant chaos for the UKBA. I think that the UKBA will continue to press ahead until it is challenged by the courts and big carriers, as suggested above. If the Mail continues to press this, trying to get one up on the Telegraph with another Government Incompetence story, then it could snowball, especially if it gets picked up by the TV news. E-Borders and Identity cards are a massive waste of our money, and I'm hopeful that, come the election if not before, these two policies will get publicly shredded.

I'm fairly certain that Comedy Phil will not survive any reshuffle (not that it matters) whether or not Labour win the election. I'm also fairly certain that he has disturbing dreams about Joanna Lumley...
 
Seven Spades said:
The Government has de-bunked this story.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/s.../2009/december/eu-confirms-e-Borders-is-legal
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This looks very much like a re-run of a much earlier statement that has been re-heated by the UKBA press office and presented as though it were a quote from a minister to make it sound more authoritative.
The original statement is one that was commented on and investigated by the Select Committee.
Given the repeated assurances that the European Commission knew all about the
programme and was content that it was legal, we asked Lin Homer in July to provide the
carriers with sight of a letter from the Commission confirming this.We are still waiting...

Despite constant reassurances to the contrary, we have seen no proof that UKBA’s
predecessors held serious discussions with the European Commission about the e-
Borders programme....We suspect that UKBA has only recently started to take these issues seriously, possibly as a result of setbacks such as the forced postponement of the programme in relation to air routes to Germany... This is not good enough. UKBA is imposing expensive requirements on the private sector in the name of urgent public good apparently without having confirmed that the requirements are lawful. UKBA must urgently seek an authoritative opinion from the European Commission on this issue.

UKBA must report the results of these discussions to us by, at the latest, the end of
February. In the meantime, any proposals to extend ‘go live’ to further intra-EU routes
must be put on hold.
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Reading the whole report leaves very little doubt that the e-borders scheme is illegal, that the Parliamentary Select Committee know that it's illegal, and so does UKBA. For the civil servants and their puppet minister to pretend otherwise is at the same level of intellectual argument as a naughty child sticking its fingers in its ears and shouting "Na na na na" because it doesn't want to be told that it is bed time.

It's time someone gave them a good smack and sent them to bed with no milk.
 
NORMAL

Seagreen said:
I'm sure "Comedy Phil" has been instructed to issue this by his PPS as a holding tactic, as after all, general public knowledge of this will result in (more) instant chaos for the UKBA. I think that the UKBA will continue to press ahead until it is challenged by the courts and big carriers, as suggested above. If the Mail continues to press this, trying to get one up on the Telegraph with another Government Incompetence story, then it could snowball, especially if it gets picked up by the TV news. E-Borders and Identity cards are a massive waste of our money, and I'm hopeful that, come the election if not before, these two policies will get publicly shredded.

I'm fairly certain that Comedy Phil will not survive any reshuffle (not that it matters) whether or not Labour win the election. I'm also fairly certain that he has disturbing dreams about Joanna Lumley...
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My name is Tom and I have ALWAYS had disurbing dreams about Joanna Lumley!
 
Major Catastrophe said:
eBorders and this government is basically the problem. Control freaks who just don't know where to stop.

Yes, we do need secure borders in the respect that only people entitled to enter are allowed to enter and the scrotes are kept out. Of course, with the EU any old murderer, rapist and pick pocket can come over here without declaring any previous record, but that is the price we pay for the freedom and membership of the EU (Which, by the way, I am against as a federal entity)

But Labour, in its usual way went for the totalitarian option and decided that every body entering and leaving the UK needed to be fingerprinted, photographed and have all travel details and credit card numbers captured and held on a database for ten years.

What was wrong with just checking my passport against a watch list and being bid "have a wonderful holiday, Mr Catastrophe"?

Yes, I know that I have my fingerprint taken every time I enter the US and that the Ozzies book me in and out, but the USA is free to do what it wants, the Australians at least know who the overstayers are without all the biometric data being collected.

But the final straw, as we know, was the Stalanist plan for all us boaters to make an internet application to enter and leave the country 24 hours before the trip, which was totally unworkable, and plain to anyone who has ever owned a boat.

I hope eBorders sinks into the Nu Labour pile of sh*t they have created and that a simple Australian style unobtrusive system is adopted along with increased coastal vigilance. In fact, I think more people would be happy to be boarded by UKBA 'soldiers' if they knew that there was some give and take applied to yachtsmen.

We are not a special case, but it is OUR country and not a prison.
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You seem to have overlooked that the Aussies have a similar system to e borders which requires Immigration to be given 48 hours notice of arrival from overseas.

A pal was caught by this one and told he should have phoned from CApetown or posted a notice by airmail and that they would accept that this was his best possible method of notice due to not having SSB etc. He was also fined for having an apple and a potato on board on arrival at Fremantle and he is a resident LOL(Fine was disposal cost) He offered to eat apple!
 
Bilgediver said:
Major Catastrophe said:
...I hope eBorders sinks into the Nu Labour pile of sh*t they have created and that a simple Australian style unobtrusive system is adopted along with increased coastal vigilance. In fact, I think more people would be happy to be boarded by UKBA 'soldiers' if they knew that there was some give and take applied to yachtsmen.

We are not a special case, but it is OUR country and not a prison.
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You seem to have overlooked that the Aussies have a similar system to e borders which requires Immigration to be given 48 hours notice of arrival from overseas.
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Hmmm. Who has overlooked what?
And anyway, Australia is in a rather different position -- literally. It does not have several foreign states within half an hour's flying time or few hours sea time of its shores, nor does it have a legally binding agreement not to obstruct the free movement of people between it and its neighbours.
 
The Aussie rule is that you have to give notice NOT LESS THAN 48 hours in advance. So you cold give notice today and slip you lines and head for Freemantle and not have a problem the other end.
 
But 48 hours notice by SSB, or by letter/fax etc is acceptable. 24 hours by internet isn't! Not the same thing at all.

What is the CG for these days, didn't they do the same job (well ok, they used an intelligence based system!) before the UKBA was invented?

When a government employs more than 50% of the population............well turkeys don't vote for Christmas do they!
 
Anyway, after all these assertions that the ER borders system is illegal, what odds will you give me that the system contiues in much the same form as proposed, and that no-one takes them to court and proves that it is illegal.

I very much doubt that it is illegal. I can't see any difference in principle between identity checks on the streets ( common in many EU countries and not unknown here) and those at sea.

The detailed practicalities of the proposed checks at sea are a different issue but they aren't a matter of legality so much as common sense
 
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