Dyneema Shackle

Neeves said:
replace a chain plate with a soft shackle :)

But more seriously.

We have had Josepheline for slightly more than 20 years - before soft shackles had a mention. So the boat has lots of stainless shackles, Harken gear with matching shackles, Ronstan gear with matching shackles, shackles on sails from reputable sail makers, shackles supplied with the rig, a reputable mast builder - in 20 years one shackle has failed. have we been lucky? We raced our X-99 hard, JoXephine of Hong Kong, really hard (we have the glass ware to prove it), local club racing every weekend, RORC blue water races, 600nm - we did not break any shackles, but did lose 2 masts (tang failure). Have we been lucky?

What sort of shackle failure frequency have others had.

Jonathan
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In 7 years and 10000nm:
1. Snapshackle attaching mainsheet to boom tang opened while going downwind
2. Two stainless shackles holding the luff of the sail to the cars on the mast track worked loose. One fell overboard, the other's pin fell overboard. I only had one spare. They had been tightened with a shackle key at the start of the season.
3. Two shackle pins on mainsheet system worked loose - discovered during normal checks and retightened. This has happened 3 times. If I could replace them with soft shackles, I would!
4. Pin on shackle in mizzen sheet system worked loose. Again, if I could replace it with a soft shackle, I would.
5. We have Selden single-line slab-reefing with cars inside the boom. Before crossing the Atlantic I replaced the lines. When I took the end-cap off the boom, I discovered that on both reef 1 and 2, the shackles that secured the end of the line had worked loose and were not even finger-tight any more. When I reassembled, I lockwired them.
6. I discovered stress cracks at the weak point on the jaw on both of the snapshackles on our 2 spinnaker halyards, so I replaced them with new ones.

During a very squally Atlantic crossing in December, we were wing-on-wing in 40kts. We suddenly got hit with 55kts from the side which got in front of the poled-out genoa, broke the pole end casting, and bent the pole in half. (See pictures). The soft-shackle holding the topping lift to the pole is still in service today.

Pole end casting: https://www.flickr.com/gp/charlieandhelen/28772Z

Pole bent in half:
https://flic.kr/p/2kh19tx
 
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Neeves said:
replace a chain plate with a soft shackle :) .......But more seriously..... did lose 2 masts (tang failure).
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I'm just a little aware of an unsubtle 'wind-up' attempt embedded deep within posts #29 and #33. Not everyone is quite attuned, but that's all right.

I'd be happy enough to use 7x19 stainless wire rope instead of Dyneema for flexible cordage shackles, except that it is about 15 times heavier - strength for strength - than decent Dyneema, it's more expensive in the lengths I might be persuade to buy, and certainly I couldn't afford any of the small handful of riggers able AND willing to make up strops and slings in the stuff - something I'd struggle to do with my own little pink hands. Now Dyneema - that I can muck about with to my heart's content, on board and at home.

Should you be 'requested' by an event's organisers to carry the makings of a replacement for a damaged stay which you might be able to fit at sea, which would you prefer to work with? 1 x 19 stainless in upwards of 7mm diameter.... or a similar diameter spare stay of good single-braid Dyneema?

When a loop or soft shackle becomes worn out, it is obvious on inspection. When a critical componet of the rig becomes worn out - it parts. Have a look here....

Dismasted.... at about 3:00 and 5:30mins
 
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Personally, I just thought the "religious fever" comment was good humor ... :)

... Although it does remind me of some of the composting toilet vs. holding tank threads on US forums! ... And I have used and owned both types. Pluses and minuses.
 
I'm not sure that I interpret a shackle pin falling out as a failure of the shackle but a lack of attention, to detail. Unfortunately checking shackles is but one of the many tasks necessary if you own a yacht - in the same way you would check a soft shackle for abrasion. If you ignore preventative attention, for anything on a yacht, you can expect failures to occur.

I also identify that some are using soft shackles because they cannot find the correct sized shackle as a replacement, do not wish to pay the higher cost of the stainless shackle or cannot find shackles at all. Arguably some of the applications for soft shackles may not be as good as that of a stainless shackle. I have said it previously there is an undercurrent of finding a problem that never existed and then suggesting a soft shackle is the answer to the maiden's prayer - I simply don't buy it.

We carry soft shackles, which I have already stated and we carry spare stainless shackles. I religiously go over the boat carefully and check shackles (or specifically I check shackle pins). We have dropped shackle pins (or I have) through carelessness or distraction - that is not a negative for shackles.

Interestingly the number of people who have suffered from a broken shackle ....... seems minimal ..... they do not appear to fail, except when the pin falls out.

Religious fervour - it is noticeable that the topic of soft shackles are limited a very limited number of people. Few people are actually converts and they are insufficiently interested or enthusiastic to comment. The fervour is from a hard core few. The rest of us continue to use stainless - and go sailing

There is no suggestion that dyneema has not opened a whole new area where cordage can be used and is better than stainless. All our sheets and all our halyards, except one, are dyneema. I also agree carrying dyneema in order to replace. halyard or some of the standing rigging is prudent. Dyneema can also be used as shore lines (as long as somewhere you introduce a bit of elasticity). Dyneema is a marvellous product and new applications are constantly being found. But I don't go round preaching to people to change their halyards nor sheets. I might mention the use of dyneema as sewn tape loops to make a soft chain - that is relatively new - but the rest of it:

soft shackles have been around for decades, or centuries. dyneema has been used as halyards, reefing lines and sheets since the 1980s -none of it is new. We used dyneema as sheets and halyards on our X-99 in the late 1980s - you don't need to tell me how good dyneema is.

Now if you find a new and novel use for a soft shackle or a new and novel use for dyneema - I'm interested. But to harp on about soft shackles of which my grandfather's generation knew - get real.

Jonathan
 
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You say you "don't buy it", I assure you it has been difficult getting parts!

Both soft shackles and hard shackles wear out. Soft shackles don't work loose under normal use whereas you seem happy for hard shackles to do so - this is why I class a pin falling out as a failure and you don't. Do you have any hidden shackles, like the ones inside my Selden boom, or the ones holding the spinnaker halyard blocks to the masthead? When did you last check the pins haven't worked loose? How often should I be checking them/what's an acceptable period or number of sailing miles for a shackle to work loose?
 
roaringgirl said:
You say you "don't buy it", I assure you it has been difficult getting parts!

Both soft shackles and hard shackles wear out. Soft shackles don't work loose under normal use whereas you seem happy for hard shackles to do so - this is why I class a pin falling out as a failure and you don't. Do you have any hidden shackles, like the ones inside my Selden boom, or the ones holding the spinnaker halyard blocks to the masthead? When did you last check the pins haven't worked loose? How often should I be checking them/what's an acceptable period or number of sailing miles for a shackle to work loose?
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The shackles that are difficult inspect, like yours and ours in the Selden boom and some at the masthead you secure with blue Loctite. Selden actually make it exceptionally difficult to inspect the innards of the boom as they use security Alan bolts that need a fancy key (that was not supplied with out boom). We found out the hard way when the outhaul failed (stainlesss strop, easily replaced, with dyneema). )You could use thin cable ties to secure shackle pins but they generally degrade in the sun (not applicable in the boom but they may degrade any way - blue Loctite or similar is better). You will need a decent shackle key to free - but its really not difficult. Do NOT use red Loctite you may (will) need heat to free the pin.

If you use blue Loctite you can reduce the frequency of inspection.

How often? - how long is a piece e of string?

I don't mind mast work and I go up fairly frequently, maybe once a quarter. I do a deck check of shackles much more frequently - I won't say daily - but every night before it gets dark I do a tour of the deck (primarily to look at the ground tackle (from the deck). Many shackles are never touched, the shackles secure the sail on the furler, the shackles on the main sheet, the screecher/spinnaker shackles for the blocks - blue Loctite. At sea I'm checking daily for any shackle I can actually see - what else do you do at sea when the trim is good, the autopilot is doing what its meant to do and the bread is proving in the sun? Its the same at anchor - I don't have any grass to cut or a car to wash, there are no supermarkets - I go for a deck check, wash our the chain/anchor locker with seawater if there is any mud. You can only service an engine occasionally..

What is not mentioned by those promoting use of soft shackles - if the method of securement of the original stainless shackle was through an appropriate sized hole, so clevis pin sized, then it is inordinately difficult to thread a soft shackle through the same hole. The component may be designed for a shackles and simply made from bent metal plate - perfect for a clevis pin and perfect to possibly cut textile (eventually). We tried using a soft shackle to attach our bridle on the anchor chain but threading a soft shackle through high tensile 6mm chain, in the rain in the dark, with a bit of chop is hardly quick and easy. The other factor mentioned for soft shackles is that they are easy to cut should that be necesery If a soft shackle might need to be cut free- the beauty of dyneema is that it is tough - you can cut it - but only under tension and with a really sharp knife - I would never use a soft shackle might it need to be cut free. Stainless is easy - bolt croppers.

On the rode - I can apply our bridle single handed, from the deck through a hole in the trampoline, it cannot fall off - the 'hook' is designed to make it impossible to fall off (but believing in belt and braces it also has gate that can be operated by your thumb). A soft shackle is too difficult to instal. Its all about horses for courses - I don't attach my bridle with a soft shackle, you may use a soft shackle - what's good for you is, actually, totally inappropriate for me. I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing (as suggested) I have good reason. I do accept that if you cannot access stainless shackles from a chandler then having the skills to make soft shackles is VERY sensible and maybe essential. But if the reason to use a soft shackle is because stainless shackle pins fall out - there are a number of options (and stainless may be much better than a soft shackle).

Stainless can fail - but there is hardly a rush pf people with lots of failures - sufficient to justify adopting soft shackles 'en masse'. There are insufficient examples of where a soft shackle is demonstrably and inarguably better than a stainless shackle - or it has not come through to me.

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan
 
Neeves said:
The shackles that are difficult inspect, like yours and ours in the Selden boom and some at the masthead you secure with blue Loctite. Selden actually make it exceptionally difficult to inspect the innards of the boom as they use security Alan bolts that need a fancy key (that was not supplied with out boom). We found out the hard way when the outhaul failed (stainlesss strop, easily replaced, with dyneema). )You could use thin cable ties to secure shackle pins but they generally degrade in the sun (not applicable in the boom but they may degrade any way - blue Loctite or similar is better). You will need a decent shackle key to free - but its really not difficult. Do NOT use red Loctite you may (will) need heat to free the pin.

If you use blue Loctite you can reduce the frequency of inspection.

How often? - how long is a piece e of string?

I don't mind mast work and I go up fairly frequently, maybe once a quarter. I do a deck check of shackles much more frequently - I won't say daily - but every night before it gets dark I do a tour of the deck (primarily to look at the ground tackle (from the deck). Many shackles are never touched, the shackles secure the sail on the furler, the shackles on the main sheet, the screecher/spinnaker shackles for the blocks - blue Loctite. At sea I'm checking daily for any shackle I can actually see - what else do you do at sea when the trim is good, the autopilot is doing what its meant to do and the bread is proving in the sun? Its the same at anchor - I don't have any grass to cut or a car to wash, there are no supermarkets - I go for a deck check, wash our the chain/anchor locker with seawater if there is any mud. You can only service an engine occasionally..

What is not mentioned by those promoting use of soft shackles - if the method of securement of the original stainless shackle was through an appropriate sized hole, so clevis pin sized, then it is inordinately difficult to thread a soft shackle through the same hole. The component may be designed for a shackles and simply made from bent metal plate - perfect for a clevis pin and perfect to possibly cut textile (eventually). We tried using a soft shackle to attach our bridle on the anchor chain but threading a soft shackle through high tensile 6mm chain, in the rain in the dark, with a bit of chop is hardly quick and easy. The other factor mentioned for soft shackles is that they are easy to cut should that be necesery If a soft shackle might need to be cut free- the beauty of dyneema is that it is tough - you can cut it - but only under tension and with a really sharp knife - I would never use a soft shackle might it need to be cut free. Stainless is easy - bolt croppers.

On the rode - I can apply our bridle single handed, from the deck through a hole in the trampoline, it cannot fall off - the 'hook' is designed to make it impossible to fall off (but believing in belt and braces it also has gate that can be operated by your thumb). A soft shackle is too difficult to instal. Its all about horses for courses - I don't attach my bridle with a soft shackle, you may use a soft shackle - what's good for you is, actually, totally inappropriate for me. I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing (as suggested) I have good reason. I do accept that if you cannot access stainless shackles from a chandler then having the skills to make soft shackles is VERY sensible and maybe essential. But if the reason to use a soft shackle is because stainless shackle pins fall out - there are a number of options (and stainless may be much better than a soft shackle).

Stainless can fail - but there is hardly a rush pf people with lots of failures - sufficient to justify adopting soft shackles 'en masse'. There are insufficient examples of where a soft shackle is demonstrably and inarguably better than a stainless shackle - or it has not come through to me.

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan
[/QUOTE
More chronic boring self important nobody must have a different opinion to meee... or I will have a tantrum and report you...
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Neeves said:
The shackles that are difficult inspect, like yours and ours in the Selden boom and some at the masthead you secure with blue Loctite. Selden actually make it exceptionally difficult to inspect the innards of the boom as they use security Alan bolts that need a fancy key (that was not supplied with out boom). We found out the hard way when the outhaul failed (stainlesss strop, easily replaced, with dyneema). )You could use thin cable ties to secure shackle pins but they generally degrade in the sun (not applicable in the boom but they may degrade any way - blue Loctite or similar is better). You will need a decent shackle key to free - but its really not difficult. Do NOT use red Loctite you may (will) need heat to free the pin.

If you use blue Loctite you can reduce the frequency of inspection.

How often? - how long is a piece e of string?

I don't mind mast work and I go up fairly frequently, maybe once a quarter. I do a deck check of shackles much more frequently - I won't say daily - but every night before it gets dark I do a tour of the deck (primarily to look at the ground tackle (from the deck). Many shackles are never touched, the shackles secure the sail on the furler, the shackles on the main sheet, the screecher/spinnaker shackles for the blocks - blue Loctite. At sea I'm checking daily for any shackle I can actually see - what else do you do at sea when the trim is good, the autopilot is doing what its meant to do and the bread is proving in the sun? Its the same at anchor - I don't have any grass to cut or a car to wash, there are no supermarkets - I go for a deck check, wash our the chain/anchor locker with seawater if there is any mud. You can only service an engine occasionally..

What is not mentioned by those promoting use of soft shackles - if the method of securement of the original stainless shackle was through an appropriate sized hole, so clevis pin sized, then it is inordinately difficult to thread a soft shackle through the same hole. The component may be designed for a shackles and simply made from bent metal plate - perfect for a clevis pin and perfect to possibly cut textile (eventually). We tried using a soft shackle to attach our bridle on the anchor chain but threading a soft shackle through high tensile 6mm chain, in the rain in the dark, with a bit of chop is hardly quick and easy. The other factor mentioned for soft shackles is that they are easy to cut should that be necesery If a soft shackle might need to be cut free- the beauty of dyneema is that it is tough - you can cut it - but only under tension and with a really sharp knife - I would never use a soft shackle might it need to be cut free. Stainless is easy - bolt croppers.

On the rode - I can apply our bridle single handed, from the deck through a hole in the trampoline, it cannot fall off - the 'hook' is designed to make it impossible to fall off (but believing in belt and braces it also has gate that can be operated by your thumb). A soft shackle is too difficult to instal. Its all about horses for courses - I don't attach my bridle with a soft shackle, you may use a soft shackle - what's good for you is, actually, totally inappropriate for me. I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing (as suggested) I have good reason. I do accept that if you cannot access stainless shackles from a chandler then having the skills to make soft shackles is VERY sensible and maybe essential. But if the reason to use a soft shackle is because stainless shackle pins fall out - there are a number of options (and stainless may be much better than a soft shackle).

Stainless can fail - but there is hardly a rush pf people with lots of failures - sufficient to justify adopting soft shackles 'en masse'. There are insufficient examples of where a soft shackle is demonstrably and inarguably better than a stainless shackle - or it has not come through to me.

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan
Click to expand...

I think you have a certain religious fervor as well ;)!

The last sentence is the curious one ("... demonstrably and inarguably better than a stainless shackle ...") to me. Most of my soft shackle uses are places where I would not us a stainless shackle either. I don't always use a hammer, because not every problem is a nail.

Here's one. On my boom the tack shackle rubs against the mast when operating the roller furler, scraping arcs in the alloy. A soft shackle is a simple, permanent solution that does not scratch, does not wear, and does not require tools to remove. As far as I can see, after 3 years of use, it is better in every way. Could the stainless shackle placement have been better engineered? Certainly. For me to change it would have taken time, expense, and would make the boom a few grams heavier, adding a stack of points to the negative column that a stainless shackle could never overcome, since the only possible advantage is longevity, and I would chose lighter weight over that.

My choice is not inarguable. But I'm pretty sure, in this one case, it is right. Or at least it works better now. I can also say that I only use soft shackles in places where a stainless shackle had a noticeable shortcoming that annoyed me. That does not mean it was inarguable, only that I liked a soft shackle in that application, at that time, and that a stainless shackle clearly, was not "demonstrably and inarguably better." Remember, such a high standard must be applied symmetrically.
 
Thinwater - guilty as charged.

Without fervour, call it a religious fervour (with a small 'r') none of us would be sailing. To be on this forum needs some fervour - just look at those that appear with high frequency on so many topics. My fervour tends to be focussed, soft shackles are bit off piste.

The application you describe is a perfect application for you - but on our cat is totally unnecessary - we do not have the problem you describe.

We have small blocks attached to the sail for our, 2nd and 3rd, (dyneema) reefing lines. I am sure this would be assigned a perfect application for a soft shackle. We attach ours with tape with a double overhand knot. They are permanent, been there for years (so why would we need something that has quick release?) A double overhand knot can hold the blocks close to the sail and are perfectly adjustable so that the blocks lie 'just right'. Many of the shackles we use are permanent they are simply never touched - except to check by a gentle touch for integrity. They don't get a mention, they do what they are meant to do. I'm sure they could all be replaced with a soft shackle - but to me its a bit perverse to change them to soft shackles considering they have completed stalwart service for over 20 years. What would I do with all the shackles that then become spare, in addition to the shackles we carry as spares :(

The shackle I do change or open frequently is the anchor shackle - in my search for the perfect anchor (now that's a topic that enjoys some fervour :) ) - soft shackle there.? Now is the opportunity for someone to show me why a galvanised shackle could be improved on :). The other shackle used frequently is that at the head of the main, but it takes a double halyard and has a sort of sheave - now - again - suggest how a soft shackle would work. Our furling head sails come off maybe twice a year, our spinnaker blocks are perfectly located and stay on location, year in year out and the shackle pin by which they are attached to the hull fits perfectly in the hole in the block. I could sit down and carefully make a soft shackle to replace the stainless one in the block - again they have not been a problem for years (like 20).

I don't rant about tape and double overhand knots - they have been used for years, though I'm not sure they are used much on yachts. I'm actually not sure that tape is used much, except maybe by sailmakers. Maybe they need a bit of religious fervour, Maybe tape and double overhand knots could be the new 'soft shackle'. :). Now there is a chance for someone to show some fervour (religious or not).

There are many ways to skin a rabbit. There are very few new ideas, soft shackles, have been used for decades - but discovered recently by some as the next big thing.

Now - I must close this down (I can hear a big sigh of relief all round) - its a gorgeous winter's day, blue sky a forecast chill day of maybe 20 degrees C - I'm off to the the dinghy and things marine. I have a shackle to check. :)

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan
 
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