Duration of T2L

[Cloud 5]

Posted also in lounge

Been told to day by broker that a T2L is only valid for two months, can anyone confirm this
Thanks

 

[nortada]

Posted also in lounge

Been told to day by broker that a T2L is only valid for two months, can anyone confirm this
Thanks

Why do you ask?

Which country was the broker in? Outside Portugal and Croatia, it is unlikely to be an issue. If you want one in respect of a UK vessel best you get it before the end of the year. When applying you could ask HMRC Salford about validity.

If you give more detail then it may be possible to give you a better answer.

 

[Cloud 5]

Why do you ask?

Which country was the broker in? Outside Portugal and Croatia, it is unlikely to be an issue. If you want one in respect of a UK vessel best you get it before the end of the year. When applying you could ask HMRC Salford about validity.

If you give more detail then it may be possible to give you a better answer.

The broker is from south of England , well established company

 

[nortada]

The broker is from south of England, well established company

You might find this useful:- C88/T2L Aide Memoir (British Flagged Vessels)

From your response, I assume that this broker plans to ship this vessel (by sea or overland) for you?

In which case, as he appears to be knowledgable, suggest he sorts out C88/T2L with HMRC Salford for you.

 

[Cloud 5]

You might find this useful:- C88/T2L Aide Memoir (British Flagged Vessels)

From your response, I assume that this broker plans to ship this vessel (by sea or overland) for you?

In which case, as he appears to be knowledgable, suggest he sorts out C88/T2L with HMRC Salford for you.

Thanks for reply, the boat has a T2L ( 2019) he says is out of date only valid for 2 months

 

[nortada]

Thanks for reply, the boat has a T2L ( 2019) he says is out of date only valid for 2 months

I, like many in Portugal, have a T2L.

Mine was issued by Salford in 2017 and to the best of my knowledge, not only is it still valid but there is no expiry date on a 8 paged document, which is used for shipping goods in the EU. It is not proof of VAT paid!

If you want a definitive answer suggest you contact HMRC Salford.

My original question still stands, why do you want a T2L and I would be interested to hear your brokers rational on T2L?

If you want another one, contact Salford. By the way a T2L is free, just the price of postage.

If the vessel is going to be shipped then all 8 (duplicate) pages will have to accompany the vessel, the owner should end up with page 4.

 

[greeny]

As Nortada says, it depends what your reason for wanting one is. T2L is a shipping document I understand and as such may only be valid for shipping for a set period. If you want one to prove VAT status in countries like Portugal where the T2L is wrongly being accepted for that purpose, then a historical T2L is the document they accept. Why would you have a recent one if you haven't shipped your boat recently. If you don't have one at all then you can easily get one from Salford as has been explained on this forum many times before.
So the key question is why do you want one and then you'll know if you need a new one.
Is the broker charging you for getting one, its free if you do it yourself and very easy.

 

[nortada]

Any more info on this suggestion that. T2L has a limited life

If the Portuguese find out it could have significant implications??

 

[Graham376]

Any more info on this suggestion that. T2L has a limited life

If the Portuguese find out it could have significant implications??

I have just sent an enquiry to the HMRC VAT helpline asking if a T2L issued before 31/12/2020 will still be valid once we leave the customs union. Will post reply if/when received.

 

[nortada]

I have just sent an enquiry to the HMRC VAT helpline asking if a T2L issued before 31/12/2020 will still be valid once we leave the customs union. Will post reply if/when received.

Thanks. The final solution.?

 

[Chris_Robb]

Thanks. The final solution.?✔

I suspect a bizarre outcome after leaving. Portugal won't recognise a British T2L and you will need to get a Portuguese T2L using your existing proof. If the T2L was issued because it was a home build, then you may want to enquire further on what was the correct Vat certification that should have been issued at the time. If there was any.

I fear there will be many complications especially yachts that have been in Turkey for many years but get back in time. Many question may be raised asking for proof of being in Greece that stopped the clock ticking on the 3 year EXPORT sword of Damocles. I have no doubt that it will be relatively easy to satisfy officials, but it's that peskey buyer who will want a greater evidence level.....or money off!

 

[nortada]

I suspect a bizarre outcome after leaving. Portugal won't recognise a British T2L and you will need to get a Portuguese T2L using your existing proof. If the T2L was issued because it was a home build, then you may want to enquire further on what was the correct Vat certification that should have been issued at the time. If there was any.

I fear there will be many complications especially yachts that have been in Turkey for many years but get back in time. Many question may be raised asking for proof of being in Greece that stopped the clock ticking on the 3 year EXPORT sword of Damocles. I have no doubt that it will be relatively easy to satisfy officials, but it's that peskey buyer who will want a greater evidence level.....or money off!

Think you could be making a Mountain? out of a mole hill. Rather think that the Portuguese T2L man has moved onto higher things and the pesky buyer won’t have even heard of a T2L - let alone know what it is.?

ps What has an EU customs trail document got to do with a home build?

 

[greeny]

Just to be clear, the original purchase receipt of the boat from a dealer showing VAT registration details and Vat amount paid is normally the method used to prove VAT status both in the UK and here in Portugal.
I know this to be the case in Portugal because I bought a Portuguese boat and that has the original receipt of purchase. No T2L. When I registered the boat at the finances, yes you have to record your ownership of a boat just like you do a car, they checked the invoice showing vat was paid. That's all they needed.
Maybe someone can remember the details of why someone was asked for a T2L in Faro some years ago.
I suspect they couldn't prove VAT paid by producing the original receipt so the Portuguese accepted the T2L instead. Then everyone panicked and went off and got a T2L just in case they were asked. As we all know, the T2L has no bearing on the VAT status of the goods and actually proves nothing, however it's another piece of paper to impress the authorities with.
I've not known anyone be asked for it since and I have never produced mine for any reason.
But I'm going to keep it for my English boat just in case. You never know.

 

[nortada]

Just to be clear, the original purchase receipt of the boat from a dealer showing VAT registration details and Vat amount paid is normally the method used to prove VAT status both in the UK and here in Portugal.
I know this to be the case in Portugal because I bought a Portuguese boat and that has the original receipt of purchase. No T2L. When I registered the boat at the finances, yes you have to record your ownership of a boat just like you do a car, they checked the invoice showing vat was paid. That's all they needed.
Maybe someone can remember the details of why someone was asked for a T2L in Faro some years ago.
I suspect they couldn't prove VAT paid by producing the original receipt so the Portuguese accepted the T2L instead. Then everyone panicked and went off and got a T2L just in case they were asked. As we all know, the T2L has no bearing on the VAT status of the goods and actually proves nothing, however it's another piece of paper to impress the authorities with.
I've not known anyone be asked for it since and I have never produced mine for any reason.
But I'm going to keep it for my English boat just in case. You never know.

Think you could be right but a number of boats were approached cold to produce a T2L. If memory serves me, they tended to be boats with exotic UK ensigns or registered in the CIs, although some Irish boats were involved. Some had original ships papers, including a build standard and a Bill of Sale but that weren’t sufficient?? Convinced me of the value of a simple red duster.

So far as I know it has all gone quiet over the past few years so I suspect that that specific official has been called to greater things.?

 

[greeny]

On another note, I finally got my elderly friends to the Camara yesterday at Lagoa for their residencia. Absolutely no problem, it gets easier every time I go in there. Very quick, had to queue for an hour but once at the desk, both were done and dusted in 40 minutes. They went back today and picked up the paperwork.

 

[Mistroma]

I have just sent an enquiry to the HMRC VAT helpline asking if a T2L issued before 31/12/2020 will still be valid once we leave the customs union. Will post reply if/when received.

I had a video call with some friends and one works for HMRC. I mentioned the T2L expiry and he said the he would let me know in a couple of minutes. He held up a very thick new book and said it was the latest version of the rules.

He confirmed that there was no mention of an expiry date for T2L and said he would also check with colleagues. I haven't heard anything and assume his initial assessment was correct. The book he used was literally covered in colour coded edge tabs with printed notes and he said that lockdown had given him to study it. I hope that Graham376 gets a similar reply to his query.

Note: He could never understand why I wanted a T2L when I first mentioned it last year in relation to my boat.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Just to be clear, the original purchase receipt of the boat from a dealer showing VAT registration details and Vat amount paid is normally the method used to prove VAT status both in the UK and here in Portugal.
I know this to be the case in Portugal because I bought a Portuguese boat and that has the original receipt of purchase. No T2L. When I registered the boat at the finances, yes you have to record your ownership of a boat just like you do a car, they checked the invoice showing vat was paid. That's all they needed.
Maybe someone can remember the details of why someone was asked for a T2L in Faro some years ago.
I suspect they couldn't prove VAT paid by producing the original receipt so the Portuguese accepted the T2L instead. Then everyone panicked and went off and got a T2L just in case they were asked. As we all know, the T2L has no bearing on the VAT status of the goods and actually proves nothing, however it's another piece of paper to impress the authorities with.
I've not known anyone be asked for it since and I have never produced mine for any reason.
But I'm going to keep it for my English boat just in case. You never know.

Greeny - I agree with all you have said. Although I have a T2L, I think it is a pointless document. I note some in a recent link said they did not have to provide evidence of VAT being paid - but were still issued! Rather debases the whole system.

More important now is vessels OUT of the EU and the UK, as to how they subsequently prove their current Vat status. No invoice by itself will be good enough, and you may need to supplement the invoice with proof that they yacht has not been out of the EU for more than 3 years - Thus exported. So any documents that prove you were here should be treated like gold dust.

I think the burden of proof with local officials is that they would be happy with a previous years invoice from boatyard, or E-TEPAI payment in Greece last year, but the biggest problem may be when you come to sell, the buyer will want much more proof that you have not broken the EXPORT rule over the last 5 years perhaps? They will see this as a money off exercise!

 

[Graham376]

I had a video call with some friends and one works for HMRC. I mentioned the T2L expiry and he said the he would let me know in a couple of minutes. He held up a very thick new book and said it was the latest version of the rules.

He confirmed that there was no mention of an expiry date for T2L and said he would also check with colleagues. I haven't heard anything and assume his initial assessment was correct. The book he used was literally covered in colour coded edge tabs with printed notes and he said that lockdown had given him to study it. I hope that Graham376 gets a similar reply to his query.

Note: He could never understand why I wanted a T2L when I first mentioned it last year in relation to my boat.

Have just received a reply from HMRC first, my question to them -

Hi, I have a boat based in Portugal. Portugal and Croatia (wrongly) require a T2L which many of us have, to prove in their opinion, that VAT has been paid and our boats are in free movement within EU. Will a T2L issued before 31/12/2020 still be valid afterwards, once we have left the customs union?

HMRC (very short) reply -
Dear xxxxxxxx
Potentially not no

Yours faithfully,

HM Revenue & Customs
Customs, International Trade & Excise

 

[Chris_Robb]

Have just received a reply from HMRC first, my question to them -

Hi, I have a boat based in Portugal. Portugal and Croatia (wrongly) require a T2L which many of us have, to prove in their opinion, that VAT has been paid and our boats are in free movement within EU. Will a T2L issued before 31/12/2020 still be valid afterwards, once we have left the customs union?

HMRC (very short) reply -


Dear xxxxxxxx
Potentially not no

Yours faithfully,

HM Revenue & Customs
Customs, International Trade & Excise

I still go back to the question - why on earth does anyone think a T2L is better than in original invoice?
Boats before 1984?? just need some proof of the harbour they were in on the relevant date, nothing else.

I suspect if T2L docs issued by the HMRC are to be recognised after leaving, then it would need to be mentioned in the Brexit agreement - I cant see it getting in now!

 

[nortada]

So going back to the OP, it would appear to be another scam in the making.

This time by a brokerage.

I suspect that in the run up to 31/12/21 they will continue to increase and continue well into next year.

Think we all need to be vigilant and share as much information as possible. It would be nice to name and shame but I suspect legal implications would prevent this.