DSC alert - what a faff by the coastguard

[MoodySabre]

We were sailing from Harwich back to the Blackwater yesterday. It was fairly windy and rough. A DSC distress alarm went of and I accepted it. 7.4 miles away on Cork Sand. An anxious lady called the coastguard not following a standard Mayday call but just Mayday, we are aground keel hitting the ground and can you hear me.

Dover coastguard then went through all the things on a Mayday call, name of vessel, position etc etc. Asked the position twice. I could see that (isn't this a big part of the point on DSC) asked her spell the boat name even though it was a clear English word. Husband could be heard shouting Indigo etc in the background. All this took ages. He asked for their MMSI which was showing on the distress message. Eventually he asked what assistance do you require? We want towing off! Much discussion about were they taking on water etc. At last he tasks Harwich lifeboat. Lifeboat calls them to say they are approaching and she says are you the big orange boat? Yep. Lifeboat then ascertains that they are now afloat, gets them to check water ingress, engine running ok etc.

What a performance but wouldn't a local coastguard have known the spot, what the tide was doing and that that would soon be off. Why ask the position when DSC has told them.? Does the spelling of an English word help a distressed radio operator?

You may of course ask why a yacht did not know they were heading for Cork Sand and the tide was fairly low. But my concern was that the DSC alert did not seem to have helped the coastguard. It helped another vessel offer to go and standby and for us to see distance and bearing to the casualty. We do miss local coastguards with local knowledge.

 

[Genoa]

I recently redid my (35 year old) short range license specifically for DSC compliance, and if I was short handed, I’d hit the button, and forget the mic to investigate keel bolts etc in this circumstance. I strongly believe in a husband and wife situation, there is enough to be done in a real mayday to NOT task 50% of the crew to form fill, which this clearly was. It is not just a local vs national coast guard thing. The tech could task the services directly. The only situation where answering admin could be useful is if it is new information such as health issues etc. However, I would add that doing the verbal MayDay properly is good, especially if you give a position relative to local landmarks as this is far more useful to small craft who could render assistance without looking at charts.

 

[RichardS]

A good tale ...... but standby by for incoming from the "you are breaking VHF law" brigade.

Richard

 

[Quandary]

On the 'if you have it you will never need it', principle, we have a standard 'Mayday' card taped to the underside of the chart table lid with all the questions. answers, phonetics, numbers etc, in large enough text to be read in poor light without glasses, the CG questions are in red, our answers in black, I think I got the template from a magazine or perhaps it was here? Only takes half an hour to personalize and print.

 

[MoodySabre]

On the 'if you have it you will never need it', principle, we have a standard 'Mayday' card taped to the underside of the chart table lid with all the questions. answers, phonetics, numbers etc, in large enough text to be read in poor light without glasses, the CG questions are in red, our answers in black, I think I got the template from a magazine or perhaps it was here? Only takes half an hour to personalize and print.

So do I.

 

[savageseadog]

Redundancy is the key I suppose. Why not confirm all the details verbally just in case the DSC is up the wall? It also stop malicious false alarms, it would become obvious that some scrote was playing the fool.

 

[Old Bumbulum]

I heard a similar call a few weeks ago when a small yacht went aground on the Deben bar. The crew was clearly very scared but was attacked with a barrage of pointless questions and unnecessary phonetic spellings by an operator who clearly had no clue where the Deben was and seemed utterly unconcerned at the near panic of the person begging for help. I got a picture in my head of a bored council clerk laboriously filling in a council-tax application form while her tea got cold. She did not give the impression she knew anything of the coastal geography or even about boats at all. Most unimpresssive.

Even if they are doing some sort of triage to see whether the event warants a launch of the lifeboat there must surely be a better way than this. I was left with the impression that in a dire emergency the CG were not going to be much help if I had to spend six or seven minutes yabbering away on the radio instead of saving myself or the boat.
Why the **** do they need to ask Lat and Long when someone is on the Deben Bar????? It's lunacy. Equally phonetic spelling of the boat's perfectly distinguishable name.

Pure and utter jobsworth is what it sounded like.

Still, when they have to deal with the sort of people who ask "Are you the big orange boat" their lack of engagement becomes a bit more understandable.

 

[ShinyShoe]

A good tale ...... but standby by for incoming from the "you are breaking VHF law" brigade.

Richard you are wrong! So so wrong...

...there is probably not enough here to wind up the VHF law brigade...

But where is the "Why was a grounding a mayday brigade"...

I recently redid my (35 year old) short range license specifically for DSC compliance, and if I was short handed, I’d hit the button, and forget the mic to investigate keel bolts etc in this circumstance. I strongly believe in a husband and wife situation, there is enough to be done in a real mayday to NOT task 50% of the crew to form fill, which this clearly was. It is not just a local vs national coast guard thing.

If you've given a clear enough verbal Mayday they wont need to form fill the information. Yes they might still want the spelling of the boat name. Gut feel - the boat name didn't match the MMSI! Bear in mind there is also a possibility you had better reception than the CG...

Second gut feel - seen this happen before - DSC alert on 70, manually switch to 16 without the ACK from the CG. Verbal Mayday with scanty information. Because transmitting on 16 can't receive the ACK on 70. DSC set re-sends the alert after ~3.5mins.

The tech could task the services directly. The only situation where answering admin could be useful is if it is new information such as health issues etc.

The tech can't task. I'll bet my bottom dollar they just pressed the red button. So no incident type.

Even if it was sent as "grounding" - No details on no of Pax. A yacht could be a single hander or a 12 crew. The local D class will have its work cut out rescuing 12 people.

Do you task a helicopter? An ILB, an ALB or seek assistance from other vessels near by.

as for local knowledge... ...pretty sure given the co-ordinates I could work out what the tide was doing and that they would float off. I have zero local knowledge. I'm not even sure I know where Harwich is! I figure somewhere between Humber and Falmouth, travelling anti-clockwise! So its not lack of local knowledge it may be lack of nautical knowledge. Surely they have a "grounding" action card that would prompt to establish current tidal height, anticipated tidal height etc. Harwich LB presumably has local knowledge and don't seem to have said "She should float off in 10minutes"

 

[ShinyShoe]

Even if they are doing some sort of triage to see whether the event warants a launch of the lifeboat there must surely be a better way than this. I was left with the impression that in a dire emergency the CG were not going to be much help if I had to spend six or seven minutes yabbering away on the radio instead of saving myself or the boat.
Why the **** do they need to ask Lat and Long when someone is on the Deben Bar????? It's lunacy. Equally phonetic spelling of the boat's perfectly distinguishable name.

Would it be the first time someone called the CG and said I'm at XX location and when the search team get there they find no sign of the boat. They then search frantically for signs of the vessel thinking they arrived too late. They call the boat - no response. Did it sink taking the VHF with it? Did their HH VHF battery die? Were they never at Deben Bar and are somewhere else in distress? Or did they just float off, sail home and are now off the boat and not listening to VHF?

You are of course assuming that tasking is done by the "form filler". In reality someone else has already taken the co-ordinates and started tasking.

Nothing stops you from asking the CG to standby... ;-) If you think there are more important things to do... ...a reply of "UK Coastguard, this is Mayday Yacht Blah, would you be able to standby for the details requested. I just need to HWMBO a hand lifting the liferaft out of the locker." might get the message across ;-)

Still, when they have to deal with the sort of people who ask "Are you the big orange boat" their lack of engagement becomes a bit more understandable.

Well yes...

...I've heard the same apathetic "Mayday we are aground" responses. But actually I've heard on the same shift, deal with genuinely life threatening sh17 or even slightly more dramatic dismastings etc and the chat seems to be much more practical. Maybe they let the YTS trainee handle the groundings and someone with experience handle the serious sh17. OR perhaps they take the view if you are calling for a grounding, they will work you hard..

 

[Genoa]

If you've given a clear enough verbal Mayday they wont need to form fill the information. Yes they might still want the spelling of the boat name. Gut feel - the boat name didn't match the MMSI!

Gut feels never good. Why do they want 3 different ways of identifying a vessel, when 2 of them are given via DSC? These principle’s are still a hangover from the days when a vessel carrying a radio had a dedicated radio officer, or at least more than a husband and wife!

The tech can't task. I'll bet my bottom dollar they just pressed the red button. So no incident type.

Even if it was sent as "grounding" - No details on no of Pax. A yacht could be a single hander or a 12 crew. The local D class will have its work cut out rescuing 12 people.

Do you task a helicopter? An ILB, an ALB or seek assistance from other vessels near by.

Tech ‘could’ easily task. IIRC when filling in the ofcom form, you specific size of vessel, type etc. Combining this and location would give you a pretty good start to get some help to the location. As I said, above, IF the information requested was additional too, such as health etc, this would make perfect sense, but to ask again for information already supplied via the DSC in a situation where other information might be more useful seems to me to be sensible. IF the boat had been dismantled, or batteries flooded during that call, how much useful information for tasking would have been provided anyway?

I'm not even sure I know where Harwich is! I figure somewhere between Humber and Falmouth, travelling anti-clockwise!

travelling anti clockwise from Humber, ... so Scotland then?

 

[Genoa]

Would it be the first time someone called the CG and said I'm at XX location and when the search team get there they find no sign of the boat. They then search frantically for signs of the vessel thinking they arrived too late. They call the boat - no response. Did it sink taking the VHF with it? Did their HH VHF battery die? Were they never at Deben Bar and are somewhere else in distress? Or did they just float off, sail home and are now off the boat and not listening to VHF?

You are of course assuming that tasking is done by the "form filler". In reality someone else has already taken the co-ordinates and started tasking.

Nothing stops you from asking the CG to standby... ;-).

1. Correct, not the first time... but quite difficult to send a hoax distress via DSC, more than once anyway, once they have your MMSI.
2. If someone else starts tasking before form filler is done, they won’t know peeps on board, or cause etc. So to your earlier point about tech, how would they know what to task? - you can’t have it both ways!
3. Nothing stops the professional, in a warm office from saying, are you able to provide more information, or are there pressing needs to preserve life or the vessel?

 

[ShinyShoe]

Gut feels never good. Why do they want 3 different ways of identifying a vessel, when 2 of them are given via DSC? These principle’s are still a hangover from the days when a vessel carrying a radio had a dedicated radio officer, or at least more than a husband and wife!

Which TWO are given in the DSC message?. ONLY ONE is in the message. The MMSI.
So firstly you need to then link the voice call to the DSC call, by the MMSI.
The OfCom database will list the two. But it does assume it is correct...

So get the voice call right, get the registration details right and you wont need to provide a ton of additional information. There isn't really an excuse to cock it up... a crib sheet beside the radio will help!

Tech ‘could’ easily task. IIRC when filling in the ofcom form, you specific size of vessel, type etc. Combining this and location would give you a pretty good start to get some help to the location.

SOME HELP - but is it the RIGHT HELP?
A helicopter will be useless for a grounding.
A lifeboat is not that helpful for a cardiac arrest - don't carry a defib and quite slow to return to shore.

But you can task once you know: nature of distress and PoB. You can then clarify the details like colour of boat, name, etc.

As I said, above, IF the information requested was additional too, such as health etc, this would make perfect sense, but to ask again for information already supplied via the DSC in a situation where other information might be more useful seems to me to be sensible.

The only info in a standard 'undesignated' distress alert is the MMSI and the position and the time of the position. That is all.

So you need the voice caller to confirm the MMSI to be sure you have the same call.
Position - I'd agree - does it really need re-stated by the caller. Except it is possible (although bet never done) to manually key the position on the DSC alert if no GPS link. How long does it really take to read the position? There are plenty who don't have DSC who would then have to position too... granted I'd prefer it was given as X miles NW of Y as well as Long/Lat

travelling anti clockwise from Humber, ... so Scotland then?

Touche

 

[ShinyShoe]

1. Correct, not the first time... but quite difficult to send a hoax distress via DSC, more than once anyway, once they have your MMSI.

I don't think most are malicious hoaxes. Perhaps demonstrating the red button gone wrong. Perhaps were panicked by something and then resolved.
BUT how much time & effort spent searching for "nothing found"
While it is rare that someone calls for help and gives the wrong location it does happen and searching in the wrong location risks that it gets written off as probably having sorted it out and headed home.

2. If someone else starts tasking before form filler is done, they won’t know peeps on board, or cause etc. So to your earlier point about tech, how would they know what to task? - you can’t have it both ways!

As per my other post. If you have the info for tasking you can gather the details later - colour of boat, name etc while tasking.

3. Nothing stops the professional, in a warm office from saying, are you able to provide more information, or are there pressing needs to preserve life or the vessel?

Can't argue with that.
Of the string of questions calls I've heard I've never got the impression there was actual life saving to be done.

 

[alant]

Richard you are wrong! So so wrong...

...there is probably not enough here to wind up the VHF law brigade...

But where is the "Why was a grounding a mayday brigade"...



If you've given a clear enough verbal Mayday they wont need to form fill the information. Yes they might still want the spelling of the boat name. Gut feel - the boat name didn't match the MMSI! Bear in mind there is also a possibility you had better reception than the CG...

Second gut feel - seen this happen before - DSC alert on 70, manually switch to 16 without the ACK from the CG. Verbal Mayday with scanty information. Because transmitting on 16 can't receive the ACK on 70. DSC set re-sends the alert after ~3.5mins.



The tech can't task. I'll bet my bottom dollar they just pressed the red button. So no incident type.

Even if it was sent as "grounding" - No details on no of Pax. A yacht could be a single hander or a 12 crew. The local D class will have its work cut out rescuing 12 people.

Do you task a helicopter? An ILB, an ALB or seek assistance from other vessels near by.

as for local knowledge... ...pretty sure given the co-ordinates I could work out what the tide was doing and that they would float off. I have zero local knowledge. I'm not even sure I know where Harwich is! I figure somewhere between Humber and Falmouth, travelling anti-clockwise! So its not lack of local knowledge it may be lack of nautical knowledge. Surely they have a "grounding" action card that would prompt to establish current tidal height, anticipated tidal height etc. Harwich LB presumably has local knowledge and don't seem to have said "She should float off in 10minutes"

"Between the Humber & Falmouth, travelling anti-clockwise"?
Really?

 

[photodog]

I was listening in to that distress as well... I have to say, I think it was actually very well handled... with the CG and the RNLI being very reassuring and professional.

Clearly the folks involved were stressed...and possibly not as experienced as some On here, (I apologise in advance if that’s not the case.. ) and I was thinking there but for the grace of god go I.

Some may view the cg taking time to record details etc as pendatry.... but what it did as far as I could tell was keep everyone calm and reassured... letting them know that help was on the way... and keeping the person on the radio involved and positive... which is a big part of dealing with a situation like this where people are in a situation which they are simply not experienced with or possibly mentally equipped to deal with.

the cox on the Harwich RNLI I feel was excellent as well.. very reassuring and calming... a total pro.

Remember that the conditions yesterday at that time were fairly robust... and their was a good chop...

Frankly It was a unsettling call, and I could see myself and my wife in the same situation... and I was both relieved and pleased when they got off, and was inspired by how decent the folks in the RNLI And CG were on the call.

 

[MoodySabre]

I agree that they were decent and nobody demeened the scaryness of a grounding. CG was pendatic and, my point, seemed to have gleaned nothing from the DSC data. The lifeboat guy was very calm and reassuring.

It was 'robust' doing big tacks down the Wallet. Made a nice change from drifting about in hot weather

 

[photodog]

I agree that they were decent and nobody demeened the scaryness of a grounding. CG was pendatic and, my point, seemed to have gleaned nothing from the DSC data. The lifeboat guy was very calm and reassuring.

It was 'robust' doing big tacks down the Wallet. Made a nice change from drifting about in hot weather

It would be interesting to see how they handle dsc information internally... in particular how much faith they place in it.

It was a great days sail.... one of the best so far of the summer. I was out past landguard bobbing around overpowered as per...

 

[steve yates]

Redundancy is the key I suppose. Why not confirm all the details verbally just in case the DSC is up the wall? It also stop malicious false alarms, it would become obvious that some scrote was playing the fool.

because they could be busy doing something to secure/save the boat?

 

[chubby]

I agree that they were decent and nobody demeened the scaryness of a grounding. CG was pendatic and, my point, seemed to have gleaned nothing from the DSC data. The lifeboat guy was very calm and reassuring.

It was 'robust' doing big tacks down the Wallet. Made a nice change from drifting about in hot weather

I agree that no indication of the CG taking charge and handling the situation: last time out heard a pan pan from a yacht off Cowes with a fouled prop who actually wanted a tow once in the medina and help berthing: lots of faff and long silences and requests for the lat and long of Egypt point!


So much faff that I tried to call the vessel directly, suggest a move to another channel, 6, and suggest he called Cowes HM on 69 or Shepherds wharf on 80 where the HM launches are based and have along hammerhead with river frontage.

I was repeatedly overspoken and gave up, only for the CG to come up with the same suggestion 10 mins later.

Should one make a suggestion on 16 or is that usurping the C G function?


What was most cringeworthy were the long silences with no feeling of the CG keeping the casualty informed of what might be going on behind the scences: no "standby pan pan xxxxx we are contacting yyyyy"

 

[Lucky Duck]

A month or so ago a French boat got into some serious trouble 'south of wight', rather surprisingly there didn't appear to be anybody on that shift who could speak any French