Drop in Lithium Batteries - the basics?

[Osmosis]

Anyone who has undertaken DIY with lithium,let alone added lithium on own vessel may have inadvertently nullified insurance.
Most insurers exclude modification
Lithium replacing lead acid = modification from vessels original design.
Check with your insurer or use a professional as recommended by British Marine do not just" drop "in a lithium battery if that is the word.
Mine were helpful .
I kept with lead acid in the end although a solar panel system with management control keeps the fridge and lighting going.

 

[NickRobinson]

Does our archive include interesting debates when lead acid batteries and incandescent lamps started to replace hand cranking and oil lamps?

 

[rogerthebodger]

Anyone who has undertaken DIY with lithium,let alone added lithium on own vessel may have inadvertently nullified insurance.
Most insurers exclude modification
Lithium replacing lead acid = modification from vessels original design.
Check with your insurer or use a professional as recommended by British Marine do not just" drop "in a lithium battery if that is the word.
Mine were helpful .
I kept with lead acid in the end although a solar panel system with management control keeps the fridge and lighting going.

Define what you mean by Modifications

Would you consider replacing the engine with a different model modification or an upgrade.

As said replacing incandescent of oil lamps with LED is that a modification of an upgrade.

I built my boat from a bear hull so is my boat uninsurable because I modified it from the original design

You also need to consider what is modification from the original design and whos design

 

[dgadee]

As the op, just to say that my other boat is now of a bit more concern after storm Babet.

I think the costs of lithium in my specific case are not worth it. If I didn't run the watermaker off the engine/inverter I would go lithium. At present it just seems that I have survived so far with the existing system which works well and will just stay with lead acid for the next battery replacement.

Thanks for all the comments and advice. I think I know so much more now than I did a few days ago.

 

[Kelpie]

As the op, just to say that my other boat is now of a bit more concern after storm Babet.

I think the costs of lithium in my specific case are not worth it. If I didn't run the watermaker off the engine/inverter I would go lithium. At present it just seems that I have survived so far with the existing system which works well and will just stay with lead acid for the next battery replacement.

Thanks for all the comments and advice. I think I know so much more now than I did a few days ago.

Sorry the thread got a bit derailed.
Out of curiosity, what do you think the costs of lithium will be, to suit your needs? You already have the big inverter, which in my case was easily the single biggest expense.

 

[dgadee]

Sorry the thread for a bit derailed.
Out of curiosity, what do you think the costs of lithium will be, to suit your needs? You already have the big inverter, which in my case was easily the single biggest expense.

My inverter wasn't too expensive - can't remember just what. Maybe £300? It was on offer.

The cost I see is the device between alternator and house. Sterling says £600 and to get a decent use of my 120a (not 140a as I previously thought) Victron would need 2 * £200. Add lithium batteries and I suppose well over £1k?

Lead acid would be £400 or £500, though I haven't priced them yet. But they really would be "drop in" to the purists.

I think we are certainly on the cusp of change. I may get another year of lead acid and things may be different then. And the Babet damage to the other boat will be sorted and behind me.

 

[noelex]

As the op, just to say that my other boat is now of a bit more concern after storm Babet.

Sorry to hear about the damage. Babet looked vicious.

Lithium batteries have many advantages, but they are not for every boat, or even every camper trailer .

 

[Kelpie]

My inverter wasn't too expensive - can't remember just what. Maybe £300? It was on offer.

The cost I see is the device between alternator and house. Sterling says £600 and to get a decent use of my 120a (not 140a as I previously thought) Victron would need 2 * £200. Add lithium batteries and I suppose well over £1k?

Lead acid would be £400 or £500, though I haven't priced them yet. But they really would be "drop in" to the purists.

I think we are certainly on the cusp of change. I may get another year of lead acid and things may be different then. And the Babet damage to the other boat will be sorted and behind me.

Sorry to hear about the other boat.

Just to give your a rough idea of my own costs:
Batteries- £450 for 271Ah
Inverter- £850 for 3kva (ouch!)
DC-DC- £140 for 18A Victron (could have got a 30A for not much more money).

MPPTs and panels on top of that, I spent about £500 to get 1150w although some of the panels were secondhand. They've fallen in price a lot since then though.

I suppose in your situation you want to be able to run the watermaker whilst replenishing the batteries from the engine. And you have a reasonably big alternator with which to do that. So a tiddly little DC-DC like mine isn't going to cut it. And I suppose you don't want to have to rely on solar to make water.

It just shows that we all have different needs and will have different solutions.

 

[st599]

Silly question, if you were to replace just the house battery bank with Li Phosphate and kept the engine battery as Pb Acid, what would you need to do for charging? Does the new house bank need a different charger and how do you deal with the differential charging speeds?

Looking to upgrade a boat that gets sailed by many people, not allow whom are kind to the house batteries.

Finally, is there a good book on this? The latest version of Calder seems to be early 2017, so probably 8 years out of date on the issue.

 

[noelex]

Normally the start battery is left as lead acid.

The most common solution to cope with the different charging profiles is to use a battery to battery charger.

 

[Neeves]

Silly question, if you were to replace just the house battery bank with Li Phosphate and kept the engine battery as Pb Acid, what would you need to do for charging? Does the new house bank need a different charger and how do you deal with the differential charging speeds?

Looking to upgrade a boat that gets sailed by many people, not allow whom are kind to the house batteries.

Finally, is there a good book on this? The latest version of Calder seems to be early 2017, so probably 8 years out of date on the issue.

As Noelex says you need a battery to battery (aka B2B) charger. So your engine battery will manage the alternator and engine battery will continue to accept charge until the house batteries (lithium) are charged. Use of Lead, for engine, and B2B is common place (but usually supplemented by solar). This latter would be good in your case as I don't think running the engine to charge the lithium from 10% regularly is a good idea (I'm happy to be corrected).

The advantage in your case of Lithium is that they will accept a lack of kindness - you can run them down to 10% of capacity.

On a general note - solar prices have dropped considerably - but we may have reached the bottom of that cycle. Prices may still fall a bit further but I suspect the big falls are finished - the market is pretty mature. Unless some new technology develops.

I do see room for other items falling as many of these items are much 'newer' than solar panels.

Silly question, if you were to replace just the house battery bank with Li Phosphate and kept the engine battery as Pb Acid, what would you need to do for charging? Does the new house bank need a different charger and how do you deal with the differential charging speeds?

Looking to upgrade a boat that gets sailed by many people, not allow whom are kind to the house batteries.

Finally, is there a good book on this? The latest version of Calder seems to be early 2017, so probably 8 years out of date on the issue.

I think it is too early for a good book. And when the book is published it will be out of date as the technology is still evolving. The drive for technology is largely automotive and there are already changes in battery technology - mostly obvious in China.

But use the search function here and look for articles by Poey, Geem, Kelpie (and others - it would be good to have a definitive list?) - they have each documented how they built a battery bank and how they then installed it in a new Lithium system. There is a lot of overlap - which is good as it means that you have more confidence in what is said. The systems described tend to be large - they are self sufficient - and have lots of solar. Tranona has a different take - its worth reading his comments as he offers a different perspective.

My personal view is that the investment IS large, though to some it might be chicken feed, and unless you can use the investment frequently and for long periods it may not be worth the change (which is why I want a flexible mobile system). I think Tranona, rightly in my view, questions some of the installations and economics - not every one is gung ho. Most of the systems described on PBO are for live aboard. So poor return for the occassional weekend sailor but factorially better for off grid full time life. This might change as component prices fall.

Jonathan

 

[Kelpie]

My personal view is that the investment IS large, though to some it might be chicken feed, and unless you can use the investment frequently and for long periods it may not be worth the change (which is why I want a flexible mobile system). I think Tranona, rightly in my view, questions some of the installations and economics - not every one is gung ho. Most of the systems described on PBO are for live aboard. So poor return for the occassional weekend sailor but factorially better for off grid full time life. This might change as component prices fall.

Jonathan

I'd broadly agree, in principle, but it depends on what you consider a 'large' investment.

Thinking back to my first boat, I had a single 100Ah leisure battery for the domestics, and I nursed it along for years despite it clearly being past its best. Replacement cost for that was less than £100. A lithium upgrade would have made no sense whatsoever.

On the current liveaboard boat, my choices were different- 4x Trojan deep cycle batteries, or lithium. And the lithium worked out considerably cheaper, but with the caveat that I have very limited engine charging.

It's tempting to consider what the lowest possible cost would be to install lithium, but it's a bit meaningless without knowing the requirements. You could literally just buy/build a lithium battery, change the settings on your MPPT, and isolate it from your engine and lead acid system. If you installed a simple changeover switch like I have, you could choose which bank to run- solar powered lithium, or engine powered lead. You'd be up and running for well under £500. But most people want a bit more flexibility than that.

 

[Neeves]

I'd broadly agree, in principle, but it depends on what you consider a 'large' investment.

Thinking back to my first boat, I had a single 100Ah leisure battery for the domestics, and I nursed it along for years despite it clearly being past its best. Replacement cost for that was less than £100. A lithium upgrade would have made no sense whatsoever.

On the current liveaboard boat, my choices were different- 4x Trojan deep cycle batteries, or lithium. And the lithium worked out considerably cheaper, but with the caveat that I have very limited engine charging.

It's tempting to consider what the lowest possible cost would be to install lithium, but it's a bit meaningless without knowing the requirements. You could literally just buy/build a lithium battery, change the settings on your MPPT, and isolate it from your engine and lead acid system. If you installed a simple changeover switch like I have, you could choose which bank to run- solar powered lithium, or engine powered lead. You'd be up and running for well under £500. But most people want a bit more flexibility than that.

I was thinking of a full blown lithium, 400a/h, B2B, solar controller for a decent bank, inverter etc, circuit breakers, newer (and possibly bigger) shunt meter, more or new solar. Part of my thought process is - if you are doing this then part of the motivation is your Leads need to be replaced and they might be a second change so most of the kit would benefit from an upgrade (hence the circuit breakers). Then there are the new 'minor' extras, the new wiring, fuses etc etc - which seem small - but add up very quickly.

Strangely I was thinking of pricing it all (downside it would be Australian market prices) - but came to the same conclusion as you - its as long as the piece of string. I might do it anyway, with caveats.

In my post 131 above - I am assuming there is a management system in place for the Lead.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Lithium batteries have many advantages, or even every camper trailer .

when I became a man, I put away childish things

 

[Kelpie]

I was thinking of a full blown lithium, 400a/h, B2B, solar controller for a decent bank, inverter etc, circuit breakers, newer (and possibly bigger) shunt meter, more or new solar. Part of my thought process is - if you are doing this then part of the motivation is your Leads need to be replaced and they might be a second change so most of the kit would benefit from an upgrade (hence the circuit breakers). Then there are the new 'minor' extras, the new wiring, fuses etc etc - which seem small - but add up very quickly.

Strangely I was thinking of pricing it all (downside it would be Australian market prices) - but came to the same conclusion as you - its as long as the piece of string. I might do it anyway, with caveats.

In my post 131 above - I am assuming there is a management system in place for the Lead.

Jonathan

If you want 400Ah usable capacity of batteries, with the ability to fast charge from the engine, and with appropriate wiring and fuse upgrades to make that work safely, then whichever type of battery you buy, you're embarking upon a large and expensive project. I doubt you'd actually save much money by choosing lead acid in that scenario, and given the far shorter cycle life, it would be a strange choice.

 

[Neeves]

If you want 400Ah usable capacity of batteries, with the ability to fast charge from the engine, and with appropriate wiring and fuse upgrades to make that work safely, then whichever type of battery you buy, you're embarking upon a large and expensive project. I doubt you'd actually save much money by choosing lead acid in that scenario, and given the far shorter cycle life, it would be a strange choice.

You might have noticed that I find appropriate wiring expensive

It might be a fast charger from the engine - but the focus is on more solar. And fuses might be small - but they ain't cheap.

Because its a large and expensive project - I want it, sensibly, in a box. Obviously large solars cannot be in a box so it will never be perfect but, for example, having more than one inverter or more than one induction hob seems mad.

If people think this is all blue skying ... when we raced JoXephine we competed in local racing and RORC Cat 1 + liferaft offshores. The latter needed a larger water tank, SSB radio, liferaft, door for the toilet (and other additions I've forgotten). We did not think twice, they went in, wired up (the SSB was tested by scrutineers) and came out after the event. No-one risks damaging an SSB in local racing, no-one carries a LR for local racing (if you sail to win).

Jonathan

 

[noelex]

Lithium batteries have come down in price significantly. Kelpie has pointed out how a relatively inexpensive and functional lithium system can put together. In many cases this will be cheaper than an equivalent lead acid system .

However, it is more difficult and complex to provide some features with lithium than with lead acid. These include:

Accept a high rate of charge from the alternator.

Allow a high rate of discharge for devices such as bow thrusters.

Protect the alternator and other electronics from a BMS disconnect.

Prevent losing all electrical items in the event of a BMS shutdown.

Allow low temperature operation.


All the above problems can be solved. In many cases the end results are better than with lead acid, but if you want to eliminate lead acid batteries from the house bank some of these requirements demand reasonably complex and expensive solutions.

Some yacht owners do not need any of these features (although I think all cruising yachts need to consider the consequences of a BMS disconnect). So the complexity and cost of installing lithium will vary.

 

[Neeves]

IN my quest for information I'm on a mail list of a Chinese solar manufacturer. They sent me recently an update on folding and flexible panels.

I've tried to copy the spread sheet for the folding panels - but I don't know if YBW is accepting the copy until I post. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

The prices are ex China and you need to factor in shipping costs - but the costs might be indicative as most people will not buy direct but from a bulk importer. I did not think the prices that cheap.

Jonathan

 

[noelex]

These foldable temporary flexible panels are ideal for caravan and camping applications. They can be spread out over the campsite in a location where the shading from trees is minimal.

This does not mean they cannot be used for marine applications, but the conditions will be different. On a boat the apparent windspeeds are higher than panels mounted on the ground in a campsite. Physical damage from these winds is more common on a yacht. Flexible and foldable panels are not very durable.

Finding a shade free location on a yacht is also much more difficult than at a campsite. A caravan does not rotate around in response to the changing wind direction.

In short, do not expect similar results to those reported on caravan and camping forums. This applies both in terms of the overall output and the durability of the panels.

These foldable flexible panels can still be a useful addition. More solar is always good. However, don’t take the camping forum results as representative of the performance in a marine environment.

 

[Neeves]

These foldable temporary flexible panels are ideal for caravan and camping applications. They can be spread out over the campsite in a location where the shading from trees is minimal.

This does not mean they cannot be used for marine applications, but the conditions will be different. On a boat the apparent windspeeds are higher than panels mounted on the ground in a campsite. Physical damage from these winds is more common on a yacht. Flexible and foldable panels are not very durable.

Finding a shade free location on a yacht is also much more difficult than at a campsite. A caravan does not rotate around in response to the changing wind direction.

In short, do not expect similar results to those reported on caravan and camping forums. This applies both in terms of the overall output and the durability of the panels.

These foldable flexible panels can still be a useful addition. More solar is always good. However, don’t take the camping forum results as representative of the performance in a marine environment.

Noelex, you really don't give up, grow up.

Many people use portable solar panels to supplement their fixed panels, The foredeck is a good location when at anchor. But to produce a decent harvest you need a decent size and a portable large panel is very difficult to store - a folding panel is one answer, another is a solar blanket. Some also attach their panels to the lifelines stanchions - a string of folding panels might be better than a series of independent panels as there will only be one power cord, not (say) 5 cords. Some members here hang their panels on the life lines stanchions and support them with a brace, or braces from the toe rail - presumably they have no issues with wind - or they would not do it.

The problems with flexible panels are well known - simply a lower lifespan than rigid panels - the owner need decide if the ability to stand on the panel merits the downside of lower life.

Jonathan