Drogues, what do you think?

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doug748

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Seems to be popular on the Forum right now, drogues and associated stern gear.

Would you fit this specialist gear if you were going across the Atlantic? Or Pacific? Or towards Australia? At what point would you feel the need?

If not why not?

Could other tactics serve you just as well? What are they?

I am just interested, not going further than Cherbourg and the Isle of Wight myself. ;- )

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What size boat?

If small then probably yes. Depends on length of passage (eg forecast reliability; typical weather patterns etc).

Drogue is for when the other tactics have been exhausted. In my small long keeler, heaving to works up to nasty conditions, but worse than that needs a drogue. Bare poles I found disappointing.
 
Another aspect would be deciding between series drogue vs a more conventional cone shaped one. Or something in between like Seabrake GP24L or similar.
I am lost here too...
 
doug748 said:
Seems to be popular on the Forum right now, drogues and associated stern gear.

Would you fit this specialist gear if you were going across the Atlantic? Or Pacific? Or towards Australia? At what point would you feel the need?

If not why not?

Could other tactics serve you just as well? What are they?

I am just interested, not going further than Cherbourg and the Isle of Wight myself. ;- )

.
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By definition you're talking about "beyond the point where you just sail off downwind" whatever that point may be. For many modern boats, sailing fast downwind and under control is (with a skilled helmsman) very effective, up to certain limits (and subject to changing helmsmen).

Also you're talking about beyond the point where you can fore-reach under storm sails, or heave-to, both of which are less effective for an AWB.

Like everything it's a set of trade-offs. Money, space, weight, for something you might never use. A JSD is several hundred pounds, occupies the space of a sail, is hard to recover, has no other uses, and requires you to build some really grown-up strong-points somewhere around your transom.

You can manage to a degree with warps, spare chains, other bits and bobs tied to the ends, festooned from various winches and cleats.

Personally, I'm going with a couple of Jimmy Green drogues of intermediate size so I can mount them in series; I can also use just one of them as a steering device if required. I think they'll do OK on the standard mooring cleats. I think that'll be OK in a 9 or 10; I don't think I'm going anywhere where >10 is a reasonable risk or (more importantly) where I'm at risk of sailing around the continental shelf beyond the reach of a 3-day weather forecast.

If I was going into high latitudes I'd probably think differently. But I'd probably have a different boat.
 
A drogue is just one piece of safety equipment. Like all safety equipment there is no right or wrong answer, a lot depends on your personal tolerance for risk and whether or not the equipment is appropriate for your type of sailing.

The biggest mistake I think is spending money and effort on additional equipment when in some cases these resources would be better spent ensuring the fundamental seaworthiness of the vessel.

However, we have a JSD drogue and I think it was worth the cost and effort in my case. Although as my wife did most of the construction, the sore fingers from threading the cones was not mine :).
 
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Well I didn't for either Atlantic or Pacific crossings. I know that drogues have a strong following but when I was thinking and researching about them I was put off but firstly Moitessier's experience of using warps as a drogue (Cape Horn - The Logical Route) and also Roger Taylor's experience, I know he is a fan of them but in one of his books about MingMing he describes what a fight he had to recover the drogue that he had deployed. Sorry I can't remember which book . Anyway I have never been a fan of backing myself into a corner and it seems in my humble opinion that by deploying a drogue that is what your doing. Additionally I don't want to carry something that is costly, would take up a lot of space in my small boat and that I may never use. I know others will disagree but that is some of the fun of these forums hearing others views.
 
doug748 said:
Would you fit this specialist gear if you were going across the Atlantic? Or Pacific? Or towards Australia? At what point would you feel the need?
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I have an Azores trip in mind for 2023 (and possibly other Atlantic Islands). For me, the smaller the boat (mine is 32 feet), and the longer offshore beyond the initial forecast on which choice of departure date is made, a JSD becomes more desirable. The two other factors informing the choice to fit one are, first, the more unpredictable seasonable conditions now we are in the midst of climate breakdown and, second, the smaller size and weight (other than the end weight) of the stored drogue using HMPE making carrying one on a smaller boat more feasible.
 
Speaking of manageable size, this is my drogue for my 32 footer using 8mm Acera Amundsen throughout together with Ocean Brake cones. (The weight is in the smaller - though heavier - bag). My wife's dress for scale and she is not, I need to add, an unusually large woman. The drogue at this size can add some fill to the cockpit which may help if pooped prior to deployment.

x5Tebf0l.jpg
 
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As the urchin who kicked off the drogue debacle here's my thoughts.

A solo Atlantic is on my bucket list ideally the Jester as this is what caught my eye when getting into "big boat sailing (sub 30ft)" however if it's not the Jester and it's not solo then it's not the end of the world. Great circle route being the obvious "challenge" with its headwinds. Having a small boat with a low freeboard and being on my own it'll be an "I can't carry on I'm exhausted"option with the next one being the boat has given up and it's liferaft time, I totally get the keep the boat moving approach but when the time comes, the time comes.

I'm not in favour for a particular drogue however JSDs seem to work well for boats my size. I carry 100m of 14mm octoplait I use to extend my anchor chain/shoreline/ kedge etc I could stream with the 10m of kedge chain or loop it as Robin Davie, Don and others in the GGR suggest is best, I can use the attachment pounts to do this. Shark/Galerider/tyre I'll decide that when the times comes but something I can throw out and go below.

Having dedicated reinforced attachment points gives me the option of a bridle for a JSD/other drogue/towing/mooring. I wouldn't want to rely on my cleats, I would worry about chafe and strength, plus they're quite high and also inboard.

Mainly for me it's peace of mind when I haven't got anyone else to turn to.
 
There are, I'm sure, times when they may be very useful. I reckon if you do have one, you should practice deploying and recovering a few times too.

I have a quite big drogue on my own yacht and a drum of 14 mm three strand all ready to go. Never used. But happy it's there. I put an eye splice in the working end with a metal eye and a chunky shackle for a long kedge. Done that tho. So I like the idea of double use.

But also, I've never declined a delivery because the yacht didn't have one. But I would if it didn't have an in date life-raft or some in date fire extinguishers.
 
Yellow Ballad said:
As the urchin who kicked off the drogue debacle here's my thoughts.

A solo Atlantic is on my bucket list ideally the Jester as this is what caught my eye when getting into "big boat sailing (sub 30ft)" however if it's not the Jester and it's not solo then it's not the end of the world. Great circle route being the obvious "challenge" with its headwinds. Having a small boat with a low freeboard and being on my own it'll be an "I can't carry on I'm exhausted"option with the next one being the boat has given up and it's liferaft time, I totally get the keep the boat moving approach but when the time comes, the time comes.

I'm not in favour for a particular drogue however JSDs seem to work well for boats my size. I carry 100m of 14mm octoplait I use to extend my anchor chain/shoreline/ kedge etc I could stream with the 10m of kedge chain or loop it as Robin Davie, Don and others in the GGR suggest is best, I can use the attachment pounts to do this. Shark/Galerider/tyre I'll decide that when the times comes but something I can throw out and go below.

Having dedicated reinforced attachment points gives me the option of a bridle for a JSD/other drogue/towing/mooring. I wouldn't want to rely on my cleats, I would worry about chafe and strength, plus they're quite high and also inboard.

Mainly for me it's peace of mind when I haven't got anyone else to turn to.
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Can't you simply get one of those three week in advance weather forecasts and not go until it's flat? ??
 
dansaskip said:
Well I didn't for either Atlantic or Pacific crossings. I know that drogues have a strong following but when I was thinking and researching about them I was put off but firstly Moitessier's experience of using warps as a drogue (Cape Horn - The Logical Route) and also Roger Taylor's experience, I know he is a fan of them but in one of his books about MingMing he describes what a fight he had to recover the drogue that he had deployed. Sorry I can't remember which book . Anyway I have never been a fan of backing myself into a corner and it seems in my humble opinion that by deploying a drogue that is what your doing. Additionally I don't want to carry something that is costly, would take up a lot of space in my small boat and that I may never use. I know others will disagree but that is some of the fun of these forums hearing others views.
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I have a cone and I guess I see it (and more regrettably the warp) as disposable. So it would be great if things die down from horrible to calm, but if they die down just enough to carry on sailing and as long as there isn’t an imminent return to storm forecast then I’d give retrieval a go but slip or cut before too much crew effort was wasted.

One use I found for a cone has been a real bonus - if a bit Heath Robinson. I attached the little dinghy grapnel anchor to the bottom of the cone ( which I idiotically did upside down so the flukes wouldn‘t come out), then tied my short snubber with a rubber dogbone to the end of the boom which fastened out as wide as I could and lowered the whole thing into the water. The rolling around at anchor calmed instantly and when a larger swell hit the rolling died away much more quickly.
 
RupertW said:
I have a cone and I guess I see it (and more regrettably the warp) as disposable. So it would be great if things die down from horrible to calm, but if they die down just enough to carry on sailing and as long as there isn’t an imminent return to storm forecast then I’d give retrieval a go but slip or cut before too much crew effort was wasted.

One use I found for a cone has been a real bonus - if a bit Heath Robinson. I attached the little dinghy grapnel anchor to the bottom of the cone ( which I idiotically did upside down so the flukes wouldn‘t come out), then tied my short snubber with a rubber dogbone to the end of the boom which fastened out as wide as I could and lowered the whole thing into the water. The rolling around at anchor calmed instantly and when a larger swell hit the rolling died away much more quickly.
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Ooh thanks, I am so going to try that.
Just the one standard JSD cone? I've got seven left over from making mine. Might make a mini vertical JSD with them. Or port and starboard ones
 
differentroads said:
Ooh thanks, I am so going to try that.
Just the one standard JSD cone? I've got seven left over from making mine. Might make a mini vertical JSD with them. Or port and starboard ones
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No, a 145cm dismeter Lazizlas cone. I think anything smaller and it would have made no difference - if anything bigger would have been better.
 
dansaskip said:
Well I didn't for either Atlantic or Pacific crossings. I know that drogues have a strong following but when I was thinking and researching about them I was put off but firstly Moitessier's experience of using warps as a drogue (Cape Horn - The Logical Route) and also Roger Taylor's experience, I know he is a fan of them but in one of his books about MingMing he describes what a fight he had to recover the drogue that he had deployed. Sorry I can't remember which book . Anyway I have never been a fan of backing myself into a corner and it seems in my humble opinion that by deploying a drogue that is what your doing. Additionally I don't want to carry something that is costly, would take up a lot of space in my small boat and that I may never use. I know others will disagree but that is some of the fun of these forums hearing others views.
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Just cut it and its gone :) In those kind of situations, the last thing you'll be caring about is the cost of anything.
 
Depends on the boat, our Bav390 was happy hove to in 50knts and 10m breaking confused seas, we weren't as happy as the boat but we managed to rest a bit. Coming back across Atlantic with nasty following steep seas deep reaching with a storm jib we trailed warps but not sure they were a great benefit slowing a bit down the hills but maybe helping prevent broaches. Main benefit here was to manually steer as the auto helm was working hard in these conditions. I've never thought drogues would be great as it's better to have speed and steerage in my view, or hove to and shut the hatches and rest.
 
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