Driving Licence for a boat - What's wrong with that ?

[LONG_KEELER]

It has always seemed logical ( to me) that if you buy a boat ,you should have the basic skills and knowledge how to use it and how interact with others safely.

In view of the number of boats around these days , surely a compulsory licence is now necessary. Many other countries think so too.

Why is this such a bad thing ?

The worst feature in my very personal view is that newcomers to the sport feel that it is obviously not important enough to need education therefore I won't bother.

We also have cases where you can pass RYA so called exams, with very little actual experience of sailing and hold a subconscious thought you are capable of doing things you really should not be doing.

Surely no freedom comes without responsibilty so why the
fear ?

I would be very interested to here people's views.

 

[Elessar]

What's the problem you're trying to fix?

 

[rallyveteran]

What's the problem you're trying to fix?

- the hole in HMG's finances probably, because after sailing (driving) licences, boat licensing won't be far behind. And the prices of the licences will be set based on the percceived ability of boaters to pay rather than the relevant cost.

 

[srm]

Will the driving test be on a real longkeeler with offset prop, or better still no prop, so that the candidate can show all round competence under sail, or can I leave my long keeler at home and borrow a Bavaria that can be driven around the marina in reverse? Or again are you thinking we all must show we can handle a mobo, in harbour, at sea, on a canal, river, lake, open water in force 9 gusting 10 or only in a flat calm?
Or to put it more simply, exactly what is the problem?

 

[LONG_KEELER]

What's the problem you're trying to fix?

I should mention that I work in the industry and see many newcomers to the sport.

With regard to new powerboaters particularly ( no offence ) I would estimate that as many as 50% have now idea of colregs, ability to read a chart , understand tides or how to moor a boat. To be fair, most are more interested in fishing than boating . As a result, many frighten friends and families, not to mention other boaters and very often pack up after a short time.

All because, they are led to believe that it is not important enough to have some form of education.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Will the driving test be on a real longkeeler with offset prop, or better still no prop, so that the candidate can show all round competence under sail, or can I leave my long keeler at home and borrow a Bavaria that can be driven around the marina in reverse? Or again are you thinking we all must show we can handle a mobo, in harbour, at sea, on a canal, river, lake, open water in force 9 gusting 10 or only in a flat calm?
Or to put it more simply, exactly what is the problem?

No. I am talking about the basics. Colregs, buoyage, chart reading tides etc. All the rest we often have to learn by making mistakes.

 

[Tranona]

Exactly! There is no credible evidence that accidents are caused by peoples' incompetence, nor that countries that have compulsory tests have lower accident rates.

That does not mean that you do not see people doing silly things, just that the consequences are usually not significant.

I remember a conversation with a German about poor boat handling skills in Lakka on Paxos, claimng that Germans were much better than Brits because they had to pass not one but two tests. This was after my wife and I had performed a perfect berthing maneouvere in testing conditons (did not tell him how lucky we were to get it right). 10 minutes later watched a mummy and daddy of all cock ups - from a German skipper of course - aided and abetted by all 8 of his crew giving advice!

People who are serious about sailing learn how to do it safely, often using RYA courses as part of their learning. Those not prepared to put in the effort either scare themselves or get out.

The general consensus is that voluntary education and learning is effective and there is no need for any tick box legislation.

 

[CPD]

- the hole in HMG's finances probably, because after sailing (driving) licences, boat licensing won't be far behind. And the prices of the licences will be set based on the percceived ability of boaters to pay rather than the relevant cost.

Hear hear. Sailing is very safe. It seems to self regulate very well. If the govt interferes, it wont work. rather like a lot of thingd the govt gets involved with .

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

I should mention that I work in the industry and see many newcomers to the sport.

With regard to new powerboaters particularly ( no offence ) I would estimate that as many as 50% have now idea of colregs, ability to read a chart , understand tides or how to moor a boat.

In that case maybe the industry should offer more support when selling the product to start with!

The argument long used against compulsory licensing is that the bar would need to be set low, and as people passed the 'test' they'd too readily assume themselves to be 'experts'.... whereas the voluntary training model encourages life long training and development....

To support compulsory training because your customers don't know what they are doing is a bit short-termist IMHO

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Exactly! There is no credible evidence that accidents are caused by peoples' incompetence, nor that countries that have compulsory tests have lower accident rates.

That does not mean that you do not see people doing silly things, just that the consequences are usually not significant.

I remember a conversation with a German about poor boat handling skills in Lakka on Paxos, claimng that Germans were much better than Brits because they had to pass not one but two tests. This was after my wife and I had performed a perfect berthing maneouvere in testing conditons (did not tell him how lucky we were to get it right). 10 minutes later watched a mummy and daddy of all cock ups - from a German skipper of course - aided and abetted by all 8 of his crew giving advice!

People who are serious about sailing learn how to do it safely, often using RYA courses as part of their learning. Those not prepared to put in the effort either scare themselves or get out.

The general consensus is that voluntary education and learning is effective and there is no need for any tick box legislation.

Fair enough. But you are talking about one instance and not for instance basics i.e. who gives way to whom etc which is what I mean mainly.

I can only say from my own perspective, and from feedback from others, particularly who sail in crowded waters , that levels of enjoyment have fallen rapidly in the last ten years because of what's going on. I'm not saying that it would be cured by licensing , but something needs to be done.

 

[Elessar]

I should mention that I work in the industry and see many newcomers to the sport.

With regard to new powerboaters particularly ( no offence ) I would estimate that as many as 50% have now idea of colregs, ability to read a chart , understand tides or how to moor a boat. To be fair, most are more interested in fishing than boating . As a result, many frighten friends and families, not to mention other boaters and very often pack up after a short time.

All because, they are led to believe that it is not important enough to have some form of education.

No offence taken. It stands to reason that the ignorant think it's easier to "drive" something with a steering wheel.

However one of the most regulated things in the UK, driving, suffers far more than boating from the effects of the incompetent and inexperienced. How many 17 year old boys, having passed their test, don't frighten friends and families when they first drive?

I don't think the problem is big, and I certainly don't think compulsory testing will fix it. It may even make things worse, by taking away some personal responsibility.

I think it would be the thin end of a slippery wedge that would ruin boating by adding more and more regulation.

If it has to happen, we should campaign keep it to the equivalent of a motorcycle CBT. ie very very basic.

 

[srm]

Last week I was in bound under power heading for the starboard buoy, a local boat used by commercial shell fish divers was comming out, heading for the same green buoy. A bit worrying but at close quarters I took a risk and assumed they were driving on the left - which they were and cheerfully passed. Have had the same problem with fish farm boats.
Saw the dive boys a few days later, had a joking word with them about driving on the right at sea. The skipper appologised and said he had just started a boatmaster course.
Small commercial fishing boats, I think up to 12 metres, do not need any certificate of competency at the moment - though Sea Fish and MCA are starting to phase it in.

At times these folk are worrying, but would rather that than compulsory licences. I remember years ago a German skipper telling me he came to Britain to do RYA Yachtmaster after he had completed all his compulsory national yachting certs because he did not think the German scheme adequate.
Compulsory licences in UK? So many pressure groups wanting to avoid this or that so in the end the test would be diluted as to be almost meaningless. Also MCA can not afford industry level salaries to recruit or keep its surveyors/examiners and is having difficulty keeping up with its current responsibilities, so who is going to run all this and more important who is going to pay? MCA have to recover all their costs and their exam fees are expensive.

 

[Danny Jo]

I should mention that I work in the industry and see many newcomers to the sport.

With regard to new powerboaters particularly ( no offence ) I would estimate that as many as 50% have now idea of colregs, ability to read a chart , understand tides or how to moor a boat. To be fair, most are more interested in fishing than boating . As a result, many frighten friends and families, not to mention other boaters and very often pack up after a short time.

All because, they are led to believe that it is not important enough to have some form of education.

To the extent that this is a problem (and some might agree that frightening off those with a romantic but unrealistic notion of boating is no bad thing) I'm not sure that testing and licensing would solve it.

The analogy with learning to drive a car and passing a test fails when you take into account the vastly greater range of challenges that face the sailor. OK, so you might pass your driving test in sleepy Cirencester today and rush off to hire a car in Palermo tomorrow, but you're not likely to suffer more than a lost excess deposit. But does a test passed sailing on the Solent qualify you to set sail across the Bay of Biscay lousy weather in a boat rated "A" under EU RCD rules? No, of course not, just as the RCD "A" category doesn't mean that the boat is adequate for that task. The problem is that some people passing the test will think so.

 

[Elessar]

In that case maybe the industry should offer more support when selling the product to start with!

The argument long used against compulsory licensing is that the bar would need to be set low, and as people passed the 'test' they'd too readily assume themselves to be 'experts'.... whereas the voluntary training model encourages life long training and development....

To support compulsory training because your customers don't know what they are doing is a bit short-termist IMHO

well said

 

[Doghousekeeper]

There is no credible evidence that accidents are caused by peoples' incompetence,

That does not mean that you do not see people doing silly things, just that the consequences are usually not significant.

Reading MAIB reports would suggest that this is not the case at all - a very significant number of accidents are indeed caused by incompetence, and the consequences can be tragic. Try reading the report for "Last Call" at Whitby, for example.

This is not something we should be complacent about. When people don't even know what it is that they don't know (which may be through no fault of their own) and the result is loss of life - then surely we owe it to the next group of innocent but ignorant novices to learn some lessons from their tragedy? At the very least we should educate people to an extent where they have a reasonable chance of enjoying their boating in relative safety

 

[LONG_KEELER]

In that case maybe the industry should offer more support when selling the product to start with!

The argument long used against compulsory licensing is that the bar would need to be set low, and as people passed the 'test' they'd too readily assume themselves to be 'experts'.... whereas the voluntary training model encourages life long training and development....

To support compulsory training because your customers don't know what they are doing is a bit short-termist IMHO

Good point about the bar being set low and the implication that 'I can do it now '.

Perhaps say a voucher tax for instruction , a percentage of the sale, when selling a boat should be compulsory rather than a licence.

 

[Elessar]

Reading MAIB reports would suggest that this is not the case at all - a very significant number of accidents are indeed caused by incompetence, and the consequences can be tragic. Try reading the report for "Last Call" at Whitby, for example.

This is not something we should be complacent about. When people don't even know what it is that they don't know (which may be through no fault of their own) and the result is loss of life - then surely we owe it to the next group of innocent but ignorant novices to learn some lessons from their tragedy? At the very least we should educate people to an extent where they have a reasonable chance of enjoying their boating in relative safety

1 example. And not wanting to speak ill of the tragic victims, did they really need telling those waves were dangerous?
3000 road deaths per year having passed tests.

 

[peter radclyffe]

hear hear. Sailing is very safe. It seems to self regulate very well. If the govt interferes, it wont work. Rather like a lot of thingd the govt gets involved with .

well said, like the identity card once youv'e lost that freedom, you wont get it back

 

[RIB_imposter]

All because, they are led to believe that it is not important enough to have some form of education.

You have made the all too common mistake of confusing Education with Licensing.

I should mention that I work in the industry and see many newcomers to the sport.

perhaps you are part of the problem? why not offer a familiarisation/handover session with the new boat when you sell it OR provide RYA PB Level 2 training with all purchases - some other people do this and have negotiated good rates with local schools.

At the very least chuck in a "beginners guide to powerboating" book, and the chart for the area the buyer intends to sail.

 

[peter radclyffe]

I should mention that I work in the industry and see many newcomers to the sport.

With regard to new powerboaters particularly ( no offence ) I would estimate that as many as 50% have now idea of colregs, ability to read a chart , understand tides or how to moor a boat. To be fair, most are more interested in fishing than boating . As a result, many frighten friends and families, not to mention other boaters and very often pack up after a short time.

All because, they are led to believe that it is not important enough to have some form of education.

some people live their whole lives without education, courtesy & responsibility to others