Drastic reduction in secondhand boat prices ?

[bedouin]

I hear other people saying that the bottom end of the market - say £20-30K is also looking pretty good, perhaps people are getting a little more cautious about the amount they spend

 

[FullCircle]

We bought a new Jeanneau 35 in 2005, but I could not afford their latest 36 now, even if I wanted to.
Our boat is a bit niche in having a lift keel, so difficult to work out the real price, seems to be a bit of a premium.
Even so, they were being offered at high £70k's, now seem to be mid to low £60k's.

I think my own circumstance of having no real salary increase since 2009 is reducing my purchasing power.

 

[Austerby]

As someone in their forties I can confirm that I feel at the lower-end of the yacht-owning population. I am seeing though an increasing interest in smaller boats.

People of my generation often got sailing in their early 30's as an adventure activity but those days of RORC races and Solent weekends have faded away after a few repetitious years yet the sailing bug remains. We're now discovering that you can have just as much fun, if not more, with a 30-yr old well-designed small yacht (25ft +/-) which costs little to buy, moor, or maintain.

We can charter when we need something bigger. There's a good reason in spending an affordable few thousand on a little boat (I have an Achilles 24) but little point in spending £70k on a cruiser that sits in an expensive marina most of the time but which can be chartered between friends for £100pp for a weekend.

Those £70k boats still have an awfully long way to fall in price before I would begin to be tempted. Imagine the car I could buy for that money, or the holidays I could have, or the deposit on a holiday home...

 

[Cardo]

We bought our old girl towards the end of 2011. We probably paid a little more than we could've got away with, but then I've always been naff at haggling. But at the time we were happy to pay the money.

I think we must've bought at the end of the higher prices, as now we see similar boats, potentially in better condition going for 20% less.

At the end of the day, we were happy paying for what we got.

 

[photodog]

Considering the cost of new right now, there does seem to be amazing value in used modernish boats... Certainly I think the 34-40 foot range has come down quiet a bit recently, though smaller than this has not so much I think...

I think it's a reflection of the costs of running something more than say 10 meters... Under this and it's possibly less of a burden but with not dissimilar useability.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Given the economy over the last few years, the reduction in number of people in 30's and 40's, competition for disposable income, alternative ways to go sailing then hardly surprising that starter boats are struggling.

I suspect that the crucial factor is the extremely high cost of keeping a boat in much of the country. As Dylan's saga has shown, there are plenty of good Centaurs knocking around for £5k - £7k, which is a cracking starter boat[1] for the cost of a newish second hand VW Polo. The killer is that once you have it you're looking at another £4k - £5k per annum just to keep the damn thing in a marina[2] for which you can have a cracking good charter somewhere with much nicer weather than here. As you say, there are alternative ways of going sailing now and, speaking as a boat owner, owning boats is a daft way of doing it. Fun, but daft.

[1] A Centaur as a starter boat? When I were a lad you worked your way up: Mirrror, Enterprise, Leisure 17, Corribee, Warwick, Pageant, Centaur. When you got to Centaur you'd made it.

[2] Other berthing options are available, of course, but many cheaper options have been marina'ed out of existence.

 

[mrming]

I'm in my mid 30s. At our club there's only one other bloke roughly my age (also a forumite) who has his own boat.

For me it wasn't whether I could afford to buy a (cheap, small) boat, it's whether I can afford to run it. I'm on a swinging mooring somewhere good value and it still adds up to an enormous amount of money. I have to say in terms of enjoyment for the family / friends it has been well worth it though.

 

[photodog]

Hmmm... You see, once you have a modernish boat paid for, the the costs of keeping it are actually excellent value...

Consider we spend 4 solid weeks on board each year, and then another 12 weekends... Costs for the two o us are the same if there are four...


Consider how much a half decent holiday for a family of four this would cost..

3 days at centre parcs running to £900...

So, we get 4 weeks holiday and another 12 weekends for about £5k... Including some bits..

I think that's excellent value...

 

[JumbleDuck]

Hmmm... You see, once you have a modernish boat paid for, the the costs of keeping it are actually excellent value......
So, we get 4 weeks holiday and another 12 weekends for about £5k... Including some bits..

The other way of looking at that is to say that if you buy a modernish boat and keep it somewhere convenientish, you have to use it for all your holidays or it doesn't make financial sense. I reckon that the annual running costs for my boat are about the same as two summer weeks in a nice holiday cottage in Cornwall.

Of course none of this really makes any financial sense, but what the hell?

 

[jonic]

I was once told to never run a slide rule over the costs of owning a boat, but to just always remember that as the anchor snubs in just before a glorious sunset, the enjoyment is priceless.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I was once told to never run a slide rule over the costs of owning a boat, but to just always remember that as the anchor snubs in just before a glorious sunset, the enjoyment is priceless.

The best advice I was given, by friends of my parents, was "Calculate the cost per day if you want, but never, ever, ever calculate the cost per mile."

 

[Malo37]

The best way to reduce the cost of a second hand boat is to eliminate the broker. Otherwise his salary, his secretary's time and other office overheads plus the required profit margin of the company he works for are all added to the cost but not the value of your boat. It's al a big con in my view supported by the yachting press who thrive on broker advertising. Very cosy.

 

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

the recession has hit the "squeezed middle". At the upper end, it was more of a crisis of confidence that a lack of cash. Anyone considering a >£70 purchase is probably in the category that has not really been affected by the last 7 years' shenanigans

We list a few wooden boats for sale on our website, and I would have to say that TiggerToo's quote bears out our experience with these in this country also. One or two of the larger, more expensive vessels have sold since the GFC hit, but the best sellers now are the dinghies and skiffs, where a small investment brings in more pleasure-per-dollar while still being able to be considered 'throw-away' if necessary.

I think there's been an overall downwards price shift, and sellers are now slowly revising their expectations downwards to match. Some buyers are reaping the rewards accordingly. But I think many possible buyers are still cautious about having a lot of their finance locked up in a vessel that might be hard to realise on should they need to. So our advice to potential buyers is just to make the seller a 'best offer' and see what happens.

Mike

 

[prv]

The best way to reduce the cost of a second hand boat is to eliminate the broker. Otherwise his salary, his secretary's time and other office overheads plus the required profit margin of the company he works for are all added to the cost but not the value of your boat. It's al a big con in my view supported by the yachting press who thrive on broker advertising. Very cosy.

So what happens when the boat you want to buy is being sold via a broker? As buyer, you don't get to choose.

I suppose if you're able to track down the seller without making any contact with the broker (as soon as he "introduces" you he's entitled to his fee) then some sellers might be willing to deal direct. But plenty won't be. When we bought our current boat we had absolutely zero contact with the previous owner, no emails, no phone calls, certainly never met him in person. He wanted the broker to handle everything and just send him the money at the end, and that's his prerogative

Pete

 

[JumbleDuck]

The best way to reduce the cost of a second hand boat is to eliminate the broker. Otherwise his salary, his secretary's time and other office overheads plus the required profit margin of the company he works for are all added to the cost but not the value of your boat. It's al a big con in my view supported by the yachting press who thrive on broker advertising. Very cosy.

Is there evidence to support that view? Do similar boats in similar conditions sell for more through brokers?

 

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

The best way to reduce the cost of a second hand boat is to eliminate the broker. Otherwise his salary, his secretary's time and other office overheads plus the required profit margin of the company he works for are all added to the cost but not the value of your boat. It's al a big con in my view supported by the yachting press who thrive on broker advertising. Very cosy.

Well, I can't comment on the yachting press' "big con", but the fact is that somehow a seller needs to find a buyer and vice versa, and the use of some form of middleman is usually necessary -- whether it's a formal broker, a specialist magazine, a trade journal, a website, a newspaper, or whatever. None offers a free service -- how can they, and why should they? (Possibly a shopping-centre notice-board does. )

Here's an analogy from my own experience. There's a chap here somewhere who apparently designs boats of sorts. I don't know if they're any good or not, and I'm afraid I don't care, because from what he's said in the past he apparently believes that websites like ours, magazines directed to the boat-building public, and other advertising means, should all make his plans available for sale to their customers at no cost to him. That way, he believes, the end-user pays no more than what he himself wishes to charge. Note that of course he gets paid for his efforts in producing the plans, but any middleman who would be silly enough to do his advertising for him under his scheme wouldn't get paid anything for his time, knowledge, effort, experience, costs, or customer knowledge. Huh? How is that supposed to work?

On the other hand, we actively market marine bronze, sewn flags, and other third-party goods that may be relevant to our customers and their needs. We do this under agency agreements whereby the manufacturers are happy to charge us less for their product than they'd charge end-user customers, because we do the work of finding and dealing with their customers ourselves. Such agreements allow us to make a small profit on each sale, while in fact the end-user pays no more (in fact, usually a little less) than by buying direct from the manufacturer. This of course is exactly the outcome that that plans-producer wants, but to which he's not willing to contribute. (Needless to say, you'll find no mention of this chap or his plans on our website....)

Sorry, that's a longer-winded example than I meant it to be. But the point I wish to make is that a middleman's charge (whether he's a yacht broker or not) is usually a relevant and legitimate part of the total purchase price, and should be factored in accordingly. I think, in very many cases, doing without a middleman could mean not making the sale at all.

Mike

 

[Seven Spades]

Logic defies prices at the moment, new boats have had well above inflation price increases and few are selling. The only choice for most people will be second hand and the rising costs of new boats should support their price. The only explanation is that there is little demand for any boats at the moment, if the market turns then I would expect that supply and demand will force second hand boat prices to recover

 

[Seajet]

I'm still getting enquiries about Anderson 22's ( people forget there was also the 26 ) - not as many as I used to, but the people I do get in contact are serious.

Prices seem to have dropped about £1,000 compared to peak a few years ago.

Two A22's have shifted quickly recently at very close to asking price, in both cases going direct to enquirers ( always a good sign when they join the owners association for all the info and first dibs ) - never had to advertise them.

 

[dylanwinter]

Old centaurs

during my search I was amazed at prices - the way they varied for the same boat

some old wrecks were not for sale - other people clearly wanted shot of them

if anyone is interested I cam across this great centaur in Holland for 2K

still up for sale

the bloke who owns it is a very nice man - a freshly qualified dutch doctor

it has a weekpy keel and a leaky window

but it looks brilliant

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/scuttlebutt/dutch-centaur-2800-euros/

three dutch KTLers were dead keen for me to buy it - but it costs more to get to Holland than to Littlehampton

great boat, great condition

perhaps Chinita would like to buy it

D

 

[jonic]

The best way to reduce the cost of a second hand boat is to eliminate the broker. Otherwise his salary, his secretary's time and other office overheads plus the required profit margin of the company he works for are all added to the cost but not the value of your boat. It's al a big con in my view supported by the yachting press who thrive on broker advertising. Very cosy.

Simply not true and I shouldn't think the yachting press will take kindly to you accusing them of facilitating a "big con".

To a professional and registered full service yacht broker with all the tools and data feeds at his disposal the market is pretty transparent. Actual sold prices are streamed in real time to him. As he (or her of course) is generally only paid on successful completion of the sale he has no interest whatsoever in overpricing a boat. That just generates lengthy advertising costs to him and fruitless and expensive journeys to viewings that will come to nothing.

The more likely scenario is that a private seller, who does not have access to the data or expert market knowledge, will almost certainly value their boat at a higher than market price. The broker then often has the difficult task of sitting down with the seller and showing them where the market price does in fact lay at that moment in time.

All the costs are paid for by the seller, not the buyer. The buyer benefits from the brokers market knowledge, VAT status checks, title and mortgage checks, RCD status checks, professional indemnity insurance and finally the correct legal transfer of title and completion documents.

The seller also benefits from all the above plus he doesn't have to deal with the preparation of the photography and specification, the advertising, the viewings, the initial sales negotiations, drawing up the sales contract, the post survey negotiation, holding the deposit in a trust account, settling any disputes after survey, receiving the final payment in a trust account and the legal exchange of title documents once the funds have cleared.

Hardly a con.