Drastic reduction in secondhand boat prices ?

[jonic]

Jonic, that's the sort of muppetry which does your profession nothing but harm, what gets me is that ' broker ' is a long established place which seems to survive, when a hit by a falling space station or something would be natural justice...

Indeed, it's also why I knew I could do well at it. Prior to my extended cruising days I came from an industry where service and attention to detail were everything, absolutely everything. I knew if I applied that to a well run brokerage it would work and people would always come back.

It's like everything - go by reputation and recommendation.

 

[jonic]

Equally it could be argued that brokers will often claim to be able to get a higher price in order to get the owner to sign up. (vis some estate agents). There are several boats on brokerage at inflated prices that have been on the market for years. I have bought five 'big' boats and sold four with no broker involvement and no problems.

There are some who do that. AND YOU KNOW WHO YOUR ARE

Only four? I've sold hundreds :encouragement:

 

[JumbleDuck]

Indeed, it's also why I knew I could do well at it. Prior to my extended cruising days I came from an industry where service and attention to detail were everything, absolutely everything. I knew if I applied that to a well run brokerage it would work and people would always come back.

It's like everything - go by reputation and recommendation.

The impression I get of Boatshed is that they have found a happy medium service route. It's not as carefully bespoke as offered by those of you who sell the big stuff but it's standardised and a hell of a lot more meticulous than many of the one-man bands. A sort of Easyjet of yacht broking, if you like.

 

[Seajet]

Come on Seajet. This can't be an Anderson 22! :encouragement:

I don't see any harm in mentioning it, or the fact that like any other 34+ year old lift keeler it's possible a keel plate may require replacement.

There are badly completed examples of any design short of Nicholsons etc, in this boats' case it was all fairly easily sorted; I offer the original build fit out plans to anyone who wants them.

It was just very annoying if not downright disgusting seeing a boat in that state marketed as a going concern, when it was most definitely a ' project ', it was lucky I happened to have been aboard when working on someone else's A22.

As for keels, most are OK( I replaced mine a while ago but there's something about my mooring and a wide 'area of accelerated steel corrosion ' from Chichester to Portsmouth, the Marine Metallurgy Unit of Portsmouth Uni came for a visit ) but we have new ones available from the original foundry, the ex-MD has funded a batch and has stated we will always have one available on the shelf if anyone needs it; I doubt many new boats can offer that...

If I'd been that novice and travelled from Weston Super Mare to the East Coast and found a boat in that state, I'd have a pretty serious sense of humour failure, it's not even as if it was a dodgy private sale...

 

[Copperbottom]

As claimed in the latest issue of YM - do you believe that used boat values have dropped significantly or is this just an attempt by some broker(s) to get the market moving again ? As the cost of new boats continues to rise rapidly I suspect the latter. My solution - don't sell.

Yes that is fine unless you need to sell and then the market rules, as always.

 

[mrming]

The impression I get of Boatshed is that they have found a happy medium service route. It's not as carefully bespoke as offered by those of you who sell the big stuff but it's standardised and a hell of a lot more meticulous than many of the one-man bands. A sort of Easyjet of yacht broking, if you like.

Yep. The thing I like about Boatshed is they take photos of everything and they usually write a pretty honest description of the boat. If you know what you are looking at it's usually easy to make a judgement on whether one of their listed boats is worth going to see.

 

[alant]

Simply not true and I shouldn't think the yachting press will take kindly to you accusing them of facilitating a "big con".

To a professional and registered full service yacht broker with all the tools and data feeds at his disposal the market is pretty transparent. Actual sold prices are streamed in real time to him. As he (or her of course) is generally only paid on successful completion of the sale he has no interest whatsoever in overpricing a boat. That just generates lengthy advertising costs to him and fruitless and expensive journeys to viewings that will come to nothing.

The more likely scenario is that a private seller, who does not have access to the data or expert market knowledge, will almost certainly value their boat at a higher than market price. The broker then often has the difficult task of sitting down with the seller and showing them where the market price does in fact lay at that moment in time.

All the costs are paid for by the seller, not the buyer. The buyer benefits from the brokers market knowledge, VAT status checks, title and mortgage checks, RCD status checks, professional indemnity insurance and finally the correct legal transfer of title and completion documents.

The seller also benefits from all the above plus he doesn't have to deal with the preparation of the photography and specification, the advertising, the viewings, the initial sales negotiations, drawing up the sales contract, the post survey negotiation, holding the deposit in a trust account, settling any disputes after survey, receiving the final payment in a trust account and the legal exchange of title documents once the funds have cleared.

Hardly a con.

But that 'cost', is built into the vendors selling price, so indirectly the buyer pays it.

 

[alant]

Barely worth selling now, the market is so low.

I have an old but well maintained and very well equipped 39 foot boat with new sails, upholstery etc, electronic gizmos galore, radar, forward looking sonar and a bunch of upgrades and even at a good price it is attracting little interest.

Will just hold on to it and write the capital off now I think.

What is it then & are details available online?

 

[Talulah]

What is it then & are details available online?

From his bio I suspect a Bennie Oceanis 390.
I used to sail one. (British Airways Sailing Club).
I quite liked it. Residules took a hammering when a disaster struck in Biscay and the boat was subsequently given a downgraded stability rating.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Yep. The thing I like about Boatshed is they take photos of everything and they usually write a pretty honest description of the boat. If you know what you are looking at it's usually easy to make a judgement on whether one of their listed boats is worth going to see.

Absolutely. I travelled 350 miles to see a boat they were selling and there were no surprises at all when I got there. I also travelled 50 miles to see one at a more local broker, whose miserable five pictures appeared to have been taken in a parallel universe in which the boat in question had not been left abandoned on shore for five years. Guess which one I bought.

 

[Aardee]

From his bio I suspect a Bennie Oceanis 390.
I used to sail one. (British Airways Sailing Club).
I quite liked it. Residules took a hammering when a disaster struck in Biscay and the boat was subsequently given a downgraded stability rating.

It was a great boat, I have many happy memories of Speedbird

 

[Scarboroughsloop]

I like the Oceanis 350 very much as well. She did well during the many gales we went through en route Gib-Falmouth.

 

[zzyyxx]

Plus at the low end of prices they just aren't selling. The ongoing costs don't appeal to budget sailors.

Yup, every weekend I consider it, and could probably afford somewhere up to around 20 in capital knowing I'd get a bit back at least. But that would be dwarfed by the cost of the hole in the water at a marina in less than 5 years. Moorings seem to be sold through some old boys network rather than the open market so I can't even figure out how you'd get one.

In short it makes sense to rent, which means I don't get to sail as much as I'd like.

 

[nimbusgb]

Yes Oceanis 390, same as the one Stingo did most if his 'circumnavigation' in.

Some details here http://cariad.imolesworth.info/

 

[timv]

I am at the moment looking for a motor boat at about £50-£60k and I think one significant factor on price is most boats in that range are too old for any finance ,and most people are far less keen to borrow against their house as they used to when house prices were rising every week. Personal loans are usually only up to about £2ok, so buyers need about £40k in cash .Most buyers who have significant amounts of cash are looking for a newer boat which leaves the price range I am looking at falling between two stools. Good news for me I suppose and this thread would encourage me to put in some low offers on boats above my price range so happy days !

 

[Tranona]

But that 'cost', is built into the vendors selling price, so indirectly the buyer pays it.

That seems to be a popular misconception. Do you have any reliable evidence that it is the case?

Surely the buyer pays what he thinks the boat is worth to him. It is irrelevant to him what the seller does with the proceeds.

 

[alant]

That seems to be a popular misconception. Do you have any reliable evidence that it is the case?

Surely the buyer pays what he thinks the boat is worth to him. It is irrelevant to him what the seller does with the proceeds.

If buying thru a broker, where else can the 10% broker fee go?
The vendor has little choice but to build it into his price, which if accepted, the buyer pays.

 

[Tranona]

If buying thru a broker, where else can the 10% broker fee go?
The vendor has little choice but to build it into his price, which if accepted, the buyer pays.

Just your opinion. First it is not 10%, second the seller is competing in a market where not all boats are offered through a broker. The market sets the price, the seller decides whether he wants to retain all the sale value by putting in the effort to sell the boat, or forgo part of the proceeds by paying somebody else to sell his boat for him.

Removing intermediaries will not reduce the price of second hand boats in general. Intermediaries only exist if they perform a useful economic function of getting buyers and sellers together to achieve a mutually acceptable deal.

 

[philld]

How interesting. I did exactly the opposite. I could never have imagined myself buying a brand new boat. Last season I was looking for something slightly larger than my 361. I didn't see anything in the condition I was seeking so, almost casually, looked at a new one. I was immediately seduced by it and bought it in 10 minutes flat. In my view, it has much to offer over second hand, except the price, of course.

Ah I think that modern yacht design trends would probably make an interesting thread on its own. Some aspects I like, for example the removal of the sugar scoop and its replacement with a drop down bathing platform, that has got to save on marina costs. Other things not so much, like square windows, its going to be interesting to see if these boats get stress fractures in the hull gel coat. Unfortunately I keep thinking of the early de Havilland Comets.

 

[haydude]

Well I sold in October and am now looking for a replacement. I didn't get as much as I hoped, but I got more than I feared, so I guess I did well. As I've read time and again on this forum, a well maintained well presented and well equipped boat will sell quickly for a premium, the rest won't, but their owners will still seem to expect top dollar.

I've not noticed any reductions in asking prices for boats already on the market over the last couple of months (apart from boatshed), but the boats that have sold quickly are typically 10%-20% below the top of the range. In any case the absolute price is not relevant unless you are a first time buyer, it's the relative price of your next boat. I did look at buying a new boat, but after an initial burst of enthusiasm I just couldn't see my myself being able to live with the latest offerings from Jeanneau or Beneteau so I'm going down the second hand route. If the brokers are right, I suspect that new boats will suffer from even greater depreciation in future, and that will put pressure on the manufacturers to reduce costs.

I believe that well maintained AWBs built until around 2007 are better quality and value than newer all "laminate" interior/flashy exterior boats.