Dragging of anchors

[Delfin]

Very kind of you to say so

I especially like the shank reinforcement, which looks like it would be quite strong. Ultra makes theirs hollow with internal reinforcement because stainless ain't that strong. They also say that the hollow shank shifts the weight to the flukes, but I can't imagine that adds much to the design. The way you've configured yours seems way simply and probably stronger.

 

[Artic Warrior]

Reports ive read was most CQR's were only good for around 250 kg holding before breaking out
Not brilliant really,plus you cant re galvanise them because they are casted and become weeeeeeak

I think one would be hard pressed to find an anchor test where the CQR didn't finish at or near the bottom. Interesting that they are now so expensive. According to Rex Francis of Anchor Right, one other problem with the CQR is that when the hinge wears, performance goes down more. Not sure why or that it is true, but that is what he says.

 

[doug748]

I was going to buy a new un last year but every single one I looked at had a poor test result at one time or another.
Not just an isolated run, but poor overall results.

Didn't know what to buy so had the Bruce re-galvanized.

 

[30boat]

I especially like the shank reinforcement, which looks like it would be quite strong. Ultra makes theirs hollow with internal reinforcement because stainless ain't that strong. They also say that the hollow shank shifts the weight to the flukes, but I can't imagine that adds much to the design. The way you've configured yours seems way simply and probably stronger.

I thought of making a hollow shank as well but in order to make it light the walls would have to be quite thin which would then make an internal structure necessary.The attachment at the base would also need to be carefully done.
To me the Ultra hollow shank is a very clever marketing trick that doesn't make much difference to the efficiency of the anchor.

 

[30boat]

I was going to buy a new un last year but every single one I looked at had a poor test result at one time or another.
Not just an isolated run, but poor overall results.

Didn't know what to buy so had the Bruce re-galvanized.

If it works...

 

[Sybarite]

Reports ive read was most CQR's were only good for around 250 kg holding before breaking out
Not brilliant really,plus you cant re galvanise them because they are casted and become weeeeeeak

For me the damning point is that when they find themselves on their side, the hinge means that the point of the fluke is held clear of the sea bottom.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Reports ive read was most CQR's were only good for around 250 kg holding before breaking out
Not brilliant really,plus you cant re galvanise them because they are casted and become weeeeeeak

A proper CQR is forged, not cast, and can certainly be re-galvanised. There were some proper cast ones as well, identifiable because the weight cast into the shank is fractional, So, for example, 24 1/2 lbs = cast, 25 lbs = forged. There are also a very great number of knock offs which aren't early as well designed or made as the original. While cheerfully conceding that the CQR has been outclassed, I think the real ones aren't nearly as bad as people think from using copies.

On a vaguely similar note, I tried this year for the first time the Bruce-alike claw I bought for the Hunter 490. I was really quite impressed with how well it performed in the muddy bottom of a freshwater loch. Anyone know where I might find a proper 5kg Bruce these days?

 

[Ravi]

I've been anchoring with many varieties of anchors for more years than I care to remember. My opinion is that the type of seabed is far more important for good anchoring, than the particular design of hook.

That's why I never sail anywhere without a patch of heavy mud at least two cables in diameter and two fathoms deep. Arrrrrrrr.....

 

[NormanS]

For me the damning point is that when they find themselves on their side, the hinge means that the point of the fluke is held clear of the sea bottom.

That is complete nonsense. The whole idea of the hinge is so that the tip hinges down into the seabed. If the anchor is lying on its side, which is how it will almost certainly land, it just means that it hasn't had any pull on it yet.

 

[Delfin]

I thought of making a hollow shank as well but in order to make it light the walls would have to be quite thin which would then make an internal structure necessary.The attachment at the base would also need to be carefully done.
To me the Ultra hollow shank is a very clever marketing trick that doesn't make much difference to the efficiency of the anchor.

You could be right. Ultra originally welded a horizontal stiffener to one side of the shank, then welded the other side on, then water blasted holes so they could weld the other side, then filled the holes, then polished the whole thing. Crazy. Now they weld one stiffener to one side and another to the other and join, with the plates overlapping. Like you, I'm not sure what the point of going to all that trouble is, but the end result sure is purty. Until it gets scratched up from lots of use like mine. Heck of an anchor, though.

 

[Delfin]

That is complete nonsense. The whole idea of the hinge is so that the tip hinges down into the seabed. If the anchor is lying on its side, which is how it will almost certainly land, it just means that it hasn't had any pull on it yet.

When I had one I thought the hinge was there to facilitate making the thing impossible to handle.

 

[Neeves]

I know that some people have perfect forecasts and always anchor and stay anchored under perfect conditions. But in Australia the forecasts can still be a little out and the max wind change to a 15 knot on shore can become a 25 knot on shore - and we all get it wrong possibly because we want to believe the 15 knots and don't fancy the 10nm move to the appropriate anchorage for 25 knots. I do note that modern anchors respond well to a wind change, they either stay set as they were, rotate, or pull out and reset - all without outside interference. I do note that pre-modern anchors are more prone to misbehaving and when they drag they never re-set. Modern anchors are much more forgiving of setting technique - which is possibly why they respond better to a wind change.

I am the first to admit that a CQR (not ignoring Delta and Bruce - but they are not so mature) has a superb history and was a major improvement to previous anchors for small boats. It has stood the test of time and despite negative comments (and I make them) has been used very successfully in some pretty isolated and exposed places. Maybe our expectations have changed and we are no longer willing to sit in the cockpit on anchor watch nor willing to coax the anchor into setting correctly in the first place.

Sprinkled through the thread are comments of boats dragging and boats on beaches - these anchors have obviously not re-set and many (all?) of them are pre-modern. I'm a bit twitchy about an anchor that needs care in setting (leaving it when having a cup of tea etc) as when it needs to re-set (for whatever reason) that care is not available - unless you get out on the bow and do it. So this idea that a CQR when laying on its side will set 'easily' does not appear to work quite so well (when you most want it) when the anchor drags. Arguably anchors should not drag if set properly - but its the real world and they do.

But modern anchors are not immune - if the practice is to set and then power set a modern anchor, that certainly will not happen - by itself and when re-setting the sharp toes, and modern anchors have very sharp toes - will be prone to catching anything foreign on the seabed, (and all anchors can catch that ball of weed, fishing net, - hence the anchor alarm.

An exception might be Fortress if you can set it sufficiently deeply that at a change of wind it simply does not move.

Its not only about an ability to set and hold but an ability to set and hold and re-set or stay set under any condition.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

The posts so far have tended to concentrate on the setting and holding ability, or otherwise, of anchors. But looking at my final comment, above - do members have comment on the ability of their anchor, modern or otherwise, to cope with changes in load, primarily wind, direction. Many will be able to say, I hope, that their anchor copes well with a gradual wind change, the anchor does whatever it does (shuffles round) and they do not really notice, except the yacht swings through x degrees (but the anchor stays effectively in the same place). The worst case scenario is a sudden wind shift, thunderstorm passing overhead, sitting to tide and a big front passes through - and then the anchor is initially loaded in one direction and then loaded at say 180 degrees. If you are anchored in a river the tide will impose a 180 degree load direction change - but the loads, unless the wind is with the new tide is not going to be that strong. Any experience(s).

Some tests I did seemed to show many anchors would shuffle round, modern or pre modern, with a load direction change upto about 150 degrees but beyond 150 degrees they would sommersault and need to reset. If an anchor re-sets of its own ability and particularly in questionable seabeds - then surely that is a positive attribute and merits highlighting.

Jonathan

 

[JumbleDuck]

If you are anchored in a river the tide will impose a 180 degree load direction change - but the loads, unless the wind is with the new tide is not going to be that strong. Any experience(s).

Repeated anecdote coming. The only significant dragging I have had was in a Scottish anchorage, Ardinamir. There is strong tide through it (it's a back way into the Cuan Sound) and on the night in question there was a wind at right angle to the tide which rose and fell all night on a 30 minute cycle, ish. Every time the wind rose I was wind rode and every time it fell I was tide rode, resulting in a zig-zag walk down the angle bisecting direction. I had to motor forwards and re-anchor three times, and every time I did there was at least one other boat (of about ten there) doing the same. This was 25 years ago, so probably all older anchors.

My suspicion is that a straightforward turn of tide isn't too bad because any drag while resetting on the ebb is cancelled out by any drag while resetting on the flood, so you remain more-or-less stationary. Over three days in string tides on Loch Moidart we didn't move an appreciable distance. I'd be more wary if that varying-wind-across-tide situation arose again, but it never has. Perhaps I have just been lucky, or maybe the situation, with wind varying enough for wind rode and tide rode to alternate regularly, is just rare.

 

[vyv_cox]

Not dragging of anchors! We arrived at this anchorage in S of Lipsi last night, wind just shy of 30 knots from NW. Anchor in first time in 5.5 metres, couldn't bring myself to dive on it at the time. 32 metres of chain out at the bow roller, with snubber. Wind blew much the same all night and I swam to the anchor this morning. Only the top of the roll bar showing in nice sandy bottom, plus the float of course. Shank and swivel buried. Wind today between 19 and 24 knots. Chain off the bottom except for the final 5 metres most of the time but the whole lot to the shank completely free of the bottom in the gusts.

 

[Neeves]

Nice report!

But - I think you are saying that in gusts, 24 knots, all the chain is off the bottom - all 32 metres. I'd expect that without a snubber, but would have thought with the snubber you might have some chain on the bottom.

Can you describe your snubber and, for the sake of those sitting at home in armchairs - what happens if you take the snubber off (to the chain on the seabed).

Jonathan

 

[sailaboutvic]

Nice report!

But - I think you are saying that in gusts, 24 knots, all the chain is off the bottom - all 32 metres. I'd expect that without a snubber, but would have thought with the snubber you might have some chain on the bottom.

Can you describe your snubber and, for the sake of those sitting at home in armchairs - what happens if you take the snubber off (to the chain on the seabed).

Jonathan

Jonathan
Did I read somewhere that you said your snubber was 11 mts long? Or am I misstaken? .

 

[Neeves]

Jonathan
Did I read somewhere that you said your snubber was 11 mts long? Or am I misstaken? .

Its actually about 14m long, one on each side (its a cat). 11mm lead climbing rope (lead rope has the greater (or greatest) elasticity). They join, scaffold knot. at a common shackle that holds the chain hook. I'm not into knots so do not know if this is the best - but it has worked - and fits a 3/8" bow shackle with the hook using the pin.

10m would be about right on most 40' ish yachts and is manageable.

Why do you ask?

Jonathan

 

[NormanS]

Not dragging of anchors! We arrived at this anchorage in S of Lipsi last night, wind just shy of 30 knots from NW. Anchor in first time in 5.5 metres, couldn't bring myself to dive on it at the time. 32 metres of chain out at the bow roller, with snubber. Wind blew much the same all night and I swam to the anchor this morning. Only the top of the roll bar showing in nice sandy bottom, plus the float of course. Shank and swivel buried. Wind today between 19 and 24 knots. Chain off the bottom except for the final 5 metres most of the time but the whole lot to the shank completely free of the bottom in the gusts.

To me, that just shows that your chain is too light. Ducks and runs.

 

[Neeves]

Vyv,

But you'll need a bigger yacht if you want to sail to windward - Catch 22?

He jests

Jonathan