Dragging of anchors

[Neeves]

Noelex,

Many, most roll bars, but including Supreme, Rocna are not floats, or cannot act as floats. They are made from hollow tube and the tube has holes in it - the holes are necessary for galvanising - they will soon fill with water - or sand.

Jonathan

Edit, I checked - Mantus also (along with Supreme and Rocna) has a hollow roll bar, open at both ends - it will fill with water. A SARCA and Knox both have solid roll bars, solid, bent rod. close edit. Bugels have chunky roll bars, I suspect also hollow.

 

[Neeves]

I am not aware that anyone shouted you down though there might have been a tendency to do so given your apparent criticism of the thread. I might have bias or misinterpreted, and if so I am apologetic, but the only shouting appeared to come from you. You appeared to dislike the very appearance of the thread but you must have been disguising your good intentions to me - we Australians can be very thin skinned and emotionally sensitive.

I have been at pains with the thread to keep acrimony at bay and I think with one exception it has been harmonious - it was meant to be a constructive thread pooling experiences, with a focus on where they (the modern anchors) might have weaknesses, whether owners were happy with their choice (of modern anchor - not necessarily a specific design) - nothing more. It does appear there are many who are more than happy to share their history which suggests that the majority thought the thread had some, or a little, positive merit.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Here's my collected rock photo. Astypalaia in the Dodecanese. Rocna anchor.

I'd hazard a guess that you would be less likely, but still possible, to catch that on a CQR.

Nice rock! Was the anchorage full of such rocks or was it an isolated rock? I'd fondly imaged most of these Med anchorages were all sand, as they are the only images one sees.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

I have owned and used Bruce ( genuine) CQR ( genuine) Rocna, Manson Supreme and now a Fortress. The initial bite of the Rocna and in particular the Manson were noticeable. Never dragged with either but then I never dragged with the CQR - iy simple failed to bite in some bottoms. I still have the CQR and a FOB which has only ever been used once. And a Bulldog. And a small Bruce.

Disadvantages? Yes - they are all really heavy which is why I switched to a Fortress. Yes its not really a modern design. Its a rework of a Danforth but with sharp flukes and made in ally so that the fluke area can be made bigger for a given boat size. And its fluke area that matters once the anchor is dug in. Sharpness aids digging in.

The modern roll bar anchors are terrible to stow on most boats and manhandling a 35lb or 45lb anchor at arms length out of the anchor locker and under the pullpit makes anchoring a nightmare

P.S. If anyone fancies a 35 lb FOB used only once, pm me.

I include Fortress in my, personal, 'modern' classification because they took a design and modified it, fairly extensively, sharpened flukes, chamfered shank, demountable, but importantly used 'modern materials'. The results, from tests, seem to suggest that comparing similarly area anchors then a Fortress is significantly better than a Danforth (and then this is factorially improved if you compare weight). There are downsides (to both, loose rock anchorages for example) but if you need a lightweight high performance anchor to dinghy out (or even extend your wardrobe) - then alloy cannot be beaten and a fluke anchor is incomparable in soft mud.

In America, maybe Robin can comment, they appear more regularly on the bow rollers of yachts than is evident in Europe, or Australia suggesting users find them perfectly acceptable.

Jonathan

Apart from the canine version - what is a Bulldog?

 

[vyv_cox]

I'd hazard a guess that you would be less likely, but still possible, to catch that on a CQR.

Nice rock! Was the anchorage full of such rocks or was it an isolated rock? I'd fondly imaged most of these Med anchorages were all sand, as they are the only images one sees.

Jonathan

That particular rock was relatively unusual, of volcanic origin I guess, but many Aegean anchorages are boulder fields. Fortunately the water is so clear that it is usually possible to see sand patches between them. There is no shortage of weed, often in huge patches with solid rock reefs beneath. I know two bays not very far from here that appear to be beautiful sand, indeed a well-known pilot states that one of them is, but are in fact comprised totally of rock, not a single grain of sand to be found. With experience it is usually possible to see the difference between rock slabs and sand but it isn't easy. It isn't all the idyllic anchoring experience that our photos might suggest.

E.g this place, a very tricky anchorage with lots of weed, shallow sand over rock. We always have problems setting here, as did this owner. He was lucky there was very little wind, quite unusual as the island is at the centre of the meltemi path.

 

[sailaboutvic]

To try and answer your question Jonathan,
We now carry three anchors.
fortress,
Light easy to handle, but even if I wanted it on my bow there no way it would fit, it's not a very easy anchor to store too, yes it lies flat but the bar stick out a long way.
The only time We had a problem is in weed, it seems to want to collect every bit of weed it can but I never had a problem with anything else and it sets almost straight away.
We have never deliberately dropped it on rock so I can't say what it would do, but if by any chance it has been on the rocks then it's held.
On Mud and sand, after a blow, at times we had a job to break it out

Delta
This came with the boat from new.
It's set in very little time has long as you don't go roaring back trying to set it, there none of this, have a cup of tea nonsense,
It gets through weeds as long as the weeds aren't too deep, but with thick weed it has a problem, it seems to hold, but once the power is slowly increased it will move, which meant if we had to anchor on weed we need to be extra careful to make sure it has penetrated the weed and once set it seems to be ok,
There have been a few accounts when it's been set for a day or more sitting out a blow and then for some reason it broke out, That's why I decide to buy a Rocna.

Rocna
20kgs an heavy bugger, it is one size bigger for our size boat, but for the price difference I decide to buy it (you have to remember we relied on this piece of metal for our safety for nearly nine months a year)
It sets quickly and once set in two years (around 500 nights at anchor) it has not once broken out,
It will cut thorough weed so long as it's not very deep in which case weed can pile up on the hoop, which in itself can be a problem.
But that's no different to most anchors went it comes to thick weed,
We have anchored many a times on rocky surfaces, although we haven't had the problem that Vyv had, I can see it could very easily become a problem with rocks around.

There has been a few times where it wouldn't set, each time, once picked up we found some kind of problem, (net, bag, weed).
We had sat out some high winds, just over the last weekend, winds at time excess of 40 kts,
Croatia last year we had to deal with weeks of thunderstorm with violent winds that would wind round 360 within seconds
We had not moved,
For us and the different surfaces we anchor on and wind condition, we encountered over the last two years of owning the Rocna we found to works well.
Although I sure there are other anchors out there that will work just as well.

Over the 38 I have sailed we have many different anchors on boats and yes also the famous CQR which I had on one of my early yacht, and it worked well for seven years,
I don't seem to remember having to give it time to set, mind you, that was a long time ago and the memory is not what it use to be,
But no sooner that I left the East coast with their thick muddle river I quickly came to the conclusion the CQR wasn't an anchor to cruise with,

 

[noelex]

Noelex,

Many, most roll bars, but including Supreme, Rocna are not floats, or cannot act as floats. They are made from hollow tube and the tube has holes in it - the holes are necessary for galvanising - they will soon fill with water - or sand.

Jonathan

Edit, I checked - Mantus also (along with Supreme and Rocna) has a hollow roll bar, open at both ends - it will fill with water. A SARCA and Knox both have solid roll bars, solid, bent rod. close edit. Bugels have chunky roll bars, I suspect also hollow.

The purpose of the underwater float is not to add buoyancy, but to mark the location of the anchor and to provide an easier attachment point for a trip line when diving. The float is only to prevent the rope sinking. Some owners use floating rope for the same purpose.

For a non roll bar anchor once the fluke and shank are buried the anchor cannot be seen so an underwater float is especially valuable. For a roll bar anchor the roll bar is the last part of the anchor to bury. In fact when the anchor buries to the extent that fluke and shank just disappear almost all the roll bar will still be visible, as the photos show.

In this way, as well as its much more important primary function in orientating the anchor, the roll bar also serves as an underwater float. As a marker. I did not mean to suggest the roll bar added buoyancy.

In some circumstances the anchor will bury deeply enough to also bury the roll bar. It can also be hard to find an anchor in weed even if it not buried. So the underwater float is still helpful on roll bar models, but it is needed less often.

 

[Neeves]

Sailaboutvic,

Thanks for taking the trouble to comment.

In America, apparently, it is possible to buy a bow roller off the shelf specifically designed to take a Fortress, or maybe Fortress and Danforth. I think these are fitted to some new vessels, might be on motor boats. But I'd agree its a difficult anchor to house on a 'normal' bow roller - though the French do not seem to worry and stow their Brittany and other fluke designs with gay abandon on the bow roller (whether they fit or not). I can only strongly recommend you discard your ideas of owning a monohull and buy a catamaran - their bridgedeck bow locker, even on a small cat, will swallow a Fortress with ease! I have seen them strapped in the transom area, but have been told its very unseaman like to tie things to the lifelines and stanchions. I'm not one to agree that they can be stored disassembled - if you ever need one in a hurry then construction will take too long.

Its a problem.

Your experience with the Rocna is obviously good - to never have questioned its performance (other than snagging debris) is a considerable reassurance. We do not quite meet your high 'nights at anchor' only 150 per year - so you have a wealth of experience underpinning your comments.

Thank you.

Jonathan

 

[sailaboutvic]

The purpose of the underwater float is not to add buoyancy, but to mark the location of the anchor and to provide an easier attachment point for a trip line when diving. The float is only to prevent the rope sinking. Some owners use floating rope for the same purpose.

For a non roll bar anchor once the fluke and shank are buried the anchor cannot be seen so an underwater float is especially valuable. For a roll bar anchor the roll bar is the last part of the anchor to bury. In fact when the anchor buries to the extent that fluke and shank just disappear almost all the roll bar will still be visible, as the photos show.

In this way, as well as its much more important primary function in orientating the anchor, the roll bar also serves as an underwater float. As a marker. I did not mean to suggest the roll bar added buoyancy.

In some circumstances the anchor will bury deeply enough to also bury the roll bar. It can also be hard to find an anchor in weed even if it not buried. So the underwater float is still helpful on roll bar models, but it is needed less often.

Noelex
I have to admit in the pass I felt haven't a floater was a bit wasted,
Because I very rarely dive to check my anchor, but checked in other ways has I would do in mid winter or in waters where it's not possible to see the bottom, but the more I think of it the more I am getting to like the idea of a floater.
Seeing Vyv and your photos , have had me seeing the light so to speak.
There been one time lately where another yachtsmen trapped his anchor, it took me a few go's before I found it, trying to follow the chain in deep weed, by which time I was a bit knacked, where if it had a floater it would have been much easier to find .
I not sure though that I would have it any longer than half a meter.
How long is you:re ( I am talking about the float now )


Edit , I can see in time to come everyone will have an under water camera on a long stick to check their anchor.
Come to think of it , not a bad idea.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Funny tho even though we slate the CQR and im not keen on it, but its good for the purpose of where it was designed for Scotland with soft mud/sand........

The traditional advice for Scotland is to carry a big fisherman's type for use in weed. I don't think I have ever met anyone who actually does this, though. How do modern anchors perform with kelp? I imagine that the very pointy front end would cut through nicely.

 

[Neeves]

Nice to have you back JD.

We have kelp in Tasmania (we also had, or have, an industry based on kelp (as was/is in Scotland). We avoid it like the plague. It grows to enormous lengths and I have been told grows, or exists on rock. So unless you have anchor that can penetrate the kelp itself and then hang onto the seabed, or rock, you are on a hiding to nothing.

Fishermans here are very expensive, and as you point out - heavy to be useful. We have decided to forgo the pleasures of kelp so that we do not need to carry a 'one seabed' heavy anchor.

But I stand to be corrected by someone who has been successful - or can dispute my anecdotal knowledge.

Jonathan

 

[JumbleDuck]

We have kelp in Tasmania (we also had, or have, an industry based on kelp (as was/is in Scotland). We avoid it like the plague. It grows to enormous lengths and I have been told grows, or exists on rock. So unless you have anchor that can penetrate the kelp itself and then hang onto the seabed, or rock, you are on a hiding to nothing.

Fishermans here are very expensive, and as you point out - heavy to be useful.

I have had unintentional success using The Anchor Which Must Not Be Named in weed (Gallanach Bay, Muck, lots of wind) but that seemed to be because it grabbed hold of a lot of weed rather than because it cut through it. Avoiding the stuff seems like the best policy, but perhaps a specialist kelp anchor - if such a thing could be invented - would sell.

 

[Artic Warrior]

I understand what you mean, as I had a light grp boat years ago and you are limited to what you can carry for sure.
I was just so impressed on how much load it took of the anchor
And nice I don't have to bother with an Angel down the chain either

You put 75m of overly heavy chain on most modern yachts, and most modern yachts is all we can buy, and its like having an extra crew member, but they permenantly stand on the bow (hail or shine) and are a real nuisance when you are plugging into seas and a decent headwind. If you use 75m of recommended sized chain for your modern yacht then at 20 knots most of it is lifted off the seabed and at 30 knots its effectively a long straight inelastic length of steel - I exaggerate but it gives the idea.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

An anchor can be named - but its not obligatory. Anonymity was to preserve equanimity. Personally I think CQR is a better acronym than TAWMNBN - but who am I to judge.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

I understand what you mean, as I had a light grp boat years ago and you are limited to what you can carry for sure.
I was just so impressed on how much load it took of the anchor
And nice I don't have to bother with an Angel down the chain either

Post #26 must have given you nightmares.

Jonathan

 

[Artic Warrior]

Your right and a few of us do carry a fishermans,,,but very very rare like you say,,,,only one other on the 50 boats around me as we speak

Ive also welded on a fishermans fluke to the end of my Delta to get through the weed. works well

The traditional advice for Scotland is to carry a big fisherman's type for use in weed. I don't think I have ever met anyone who actually does this, though. How do modern anchors perform with kelp? I imagine that the very pointy front end would cut through nicely.

 

[Artic Warrior]

MMmmmm 6mm interesting, I don't sleep well as it is Ha ha

Post #26 must have given you nightmares.

Jonathan

 

[Artic Warrior]

I was next to two 45ft boats last year both had rocna and were large, with heavy chain.
we were all in about 4 meters of water with weed.
We all dragged at the same time, I was just using a std 25kg delta at the time
But the gust was only about 20 knots if that.

Your right and a few of us do carry a fishermans,,,but very very rare like you say,,,,only one other on the 50 boats around me as we speak

Ive also welded on a fishermans fluke to the end of my Delta to get through the weed. works well

 

[Trop Cher]

The traditional advice for Scotland is to carry a big fisherman's type for use in weed. I don't think I have ever met anyone who actually does this, though. How do modern anchors perform with kelp? I imagine that the very pointy front end would cut through nicely.

I use a Spade (NW Scotland) and have found that it cuts through the kelp easily, but when I lift it in the morning, as well as kelp coming up I want to see mud on the shanks, that way I know I've successfully cut through the kelp and dug it into the mud.

 

[ribrage]

Your right and a few of us do carry a fishermans,,,but very very rare like you say,,,,only one other on the 50 boats around me as we speak

Ive also welded on a fishermans fluke to the end of my Delta to get through the weed. works well

I bought a big fishermans anchor before leaving the Uk as it was dirt cheap on ebay (new) we have used it in a few anchorages around Ibiza - San Antonio mainly , cut through the weed a treat ( not kelp ), held us in 30 knots steady wind, while plenty of others were dragging using old and modern anchors, bitch to get back on board though , too heavy and clumsy for me to lift alone back onto pulpit , so I spliced a "handle" onto the crown that I can attach a halyard too - glad we bought it - old school but worked when we needed it.

It would be interesting to go back to San Antonio to see if I could get the Manson to dig in - CQR refused numerous times, hence I put the fishermans on to try - and partly why we now have a new generation hook.