Downwind Sail - Parasail???

[Halo]

I am in the market for a downwind sail. Main thing is that SWMBO is nervous after interesting time with a large spinnaker whilst racing and there are usually only the two of us on board
Any views from the forum on an easy handling chute/genneker and the parasail ??

 

[Seajet]

Halo,

I've raced and fast cruised various dinghies and cruisers; when I got to sail a 'modern' International 14 dinghy with an asymmetric Spinnaker it was a revelation...

Very user friendly, easy to gybe, and without a determined wish to kill me and the boat like conventional kites !

Go for a chute.

 

[TimBennet]

The 'fear of spinnakers' has certainly given a lot of people the opportunity to market 'safer' alternatives. Whether they are or not, is by the by, as I contend most cruisers can handle a regular spinnaker if they know what they are doing.

The first thing to remember is that cruisers don't need to hold onto their kites in much more than 15 knots of true windspeed. Beyond that the poled out genoa is often sufficient. Similarly you don't need to use it for close-ish reaching or even gybe with it set, so you immediately eliminate the three situations that lead to most racers having their epics; too much wind, shy reaching and gybing. Actually it's frequently all three! The problem of course is that increasing windspeed is not as 'apparent' when running, so stay awake and douse early.

Generally if a symmetrical spinnaker is the same size as a cruising chute, it will be as easy to handle. Much of the friendly handling of a cruising chute is because it is smaller than a maximum area, wide shouldered ex-racing kite. Then fixing the tack to the bow is also quoted as being an advantage, and so it can be on a reach, but for deep running a pole is frequently necessary, (as it is for goose-winging the genoa), so learning to handle the pole is essential. The secret of this is to use a topping lift on the pole and both a foreguy and aft guy. The pole is now fixed and using the outer end to support one corner of your spinnaker is no harder than using the bow.

So with the handling broken down into succinct operations and drills, some practice and organisation will make any spinnaker a joy to use. If you want add in a snuffer or free flying furler, then they can help. Keeping the handling of the pole separate really is the key; when the kites down (or genoa taken off the goosewing), the pole can stay out for as long as you want. Frequently we leave ours until the change of watch so there are two of us on deck.

The final thing to remember is that if you hold two corners of a spinnaker you have a flag. No one's scared of flags. Try to wrestle all three with it full of air, and you will loose that battle with any sort of kite.

 

[nickd]

Hi
Not strictly a dead down wind sail, but I was on a bav 46 with a big new crusiing chute for a couple of weeks, wow a great sail, kept us going in very light airs and very easy to handle with a snuffer. If you want to go dead down wind we found it best to goose wing it with the genoa. I suggest that it might be a good compromise with swmbo as it looks spinnaker like but is much easier to handle and I would suggest will get a lot more use than a spinnaker (as it can be sailed on wider angles) paricularly if your crew is nervous of using it.
Cheers Nick

 

[Seajet]

The 'fear of spinnakers' has certainly given a lot of people the opportunity to market 'safer' alternatives. Whether they are or not, is by the by, as I contend most cruisers can handle a regular spinnaker if they know what they are doing.

The first thing to remember is that cruisers don't need to hold onto their kites in much more than 15 knots of true windspeed. Beyond that the poled out genoa is often sufficient. Similarly you don't need to use it for close-ish reaching or even gybe with it set, so you immediately eliminate the three situations that lead to most racers having their epics; too much wind, shy reaching and gybing. Actually it's frequently all three! The problem of course is that increasing windspeed is not as 'apparent' when running, so stay awake and douse early.

Generally if a symmetrical spinnaker is the same size as a cruising chute, it will be as easy to handle. Much of the friendly handling of a cruising chute is because it is smaller than a maximum area, wide shouldered ex-racing kite. Then fixing the tack to the bow is also quoted as being an advantage, and so it can be on a reach, but for deep running a pole is frequently necessary, (as it is for goose-winging the genoa), so learning to handle the pole is essential. The secret of this is to use a topping lift on the pole and both a foreguy and aft guy. The pole is now fixed and using the outer end to support one corner of your spinnaker is no harder than using the bow.

So with the handling broken down into succinct operations and drills, some practice and organisation will make any spinnaker a joy to use. If you want add in a snuffer or free flying furler, then they can help. Keeping the handling of the pole separate really is the key; when the kites down (or genoa taken off the goosewing), the pole can stay out for as long as you want. Frequently we leave ours until the change of watch so there are two of us on deck.

The final thing to remember is that if you hold two corners of a spinnaker you have a flag. No one's scared of flags. Try to wrestle all three with it full of air, and you will loose that battle with any sort of kite.

Let's say I disagree !

Having actually used a lot of conventional spinnakers on dinghies and larger boats, then asymmetric chutes, for a boat with a husband and wife - or bloke with a chum - the chute wins hands down every time.

It may be necessary to 'tack downwind', gybing from one broad reach to the other, but that's safer sailing anyway, not to mention faster !

 

[TimBennet]

. . . not to mention faster !

It's not necessarily faster. The best VMG downwind on a displacement boat is usually straight down the rumbline. You won't see racing Sonatas or other similar boats look for 'hot' angles as they don't pick up enough speed to compensate for the extra distance. Certainly heading up a little to keep the wind safely over the quarter on a cruiser is a help, but is unlikely to keep a cruising chute filled to leeward of the main. By the time the cruising chute fills, you are sailing a much longer distance. If that doesn't matter to you, that's fine but it's not strictly 'downwind sailing'; it's just reaching backwards and forwards.

Using the experience of a fast planing dinghy with an asymmetric on a bowsprit is not really transferable to displacement cruising boats. Cork 1720s don't do well in mixed handicap fleets unless its windy enough to plane. Even planing boats like these sailing the 'hotter' angles at displacement speeds with their gigantic, masthead asymmetrics, can't hold their time on displacement cruisers trundling down the rumbline.

 

[prv]

Having actually used a lot of conventional spinnakers on dinghies and larger boats, then asymmetric chutes, for a boat with a husband and wife - or bloke with a chum - the chute wins hands down every time.

So what is it about the cruising chute that makes it easier?

I've also used both, but the spinnaker only when racing and the cruising chute only when cruising (on different boats). Obviously racing is always going to be more stressful and demanding whatever the kit or the manoeuvre.

I can't see why setting a spinnaker in slow time, while not jostling the rest of the fleet round a mark, should be any harder than setting a cruising chute. Set up the pole before you do anything else, and then it's just like a cruising chute but with the tack higher up and to one side.

Pete

 

[lw395]

It's not necessarily faster. The best VMG downwind on a displacement boat is usually straight down the rumbline. You won't see racing Sonatas or other similar boats look for 'hot' angles as they don't pick up enough speed to compensate for the extra distance. Certainly heading up a little to keep the wind safely over the quarter on a cruiser is a help, but is unlikely to keep a cruising chute filled to leeward of the main. By the time the cruising chute fills, you are sailing a much longer distance. If that doesn't matter to you, that's fine but it's not strictly 'downwind sailing'; it's just reaching backwards and forwards.

Using the experience of a fast planing dinghy with an asymmetric on a bowsprit is not really transferable to displacement cruising boats. Cork 1720s don't do well in mixed handicap fleets unless its windy enough to plane. Even planing boats like these sailing the 'hotter' angles at displacement speeds with their gigantic, masthead asymmetrics, can't hold their time on displacement cruisers trundling down the rumbline.

Even slow boats like Sonatas will come up 10 or 15 degrees off the dead run. This adds very little to the distance to run (15degrees adds 3.5%) but moves the apparent wind forward and gets more flow over the sail.
Since when cruising your destination is unlikely to be dead downwind, there is normally a lot of gain to be had by being off the dead run and on the right gybe.
Whether a conventional chute is better than a cruising chute depends on windspeed, boat weight and number of crew, as well as personal preference.
Personally, I find sailing downwind in a series of angles looking for the best breeze and tide much more absorbing than being blown down the rhumb line.
But ideally I would have a big cruising chute and a moderate sized symetrical kite on board.
I would also consider a small bowsprit that pivoted to windward on certain boats.

 

[TimBennet]

Even slow boats like Sonatas will come up 10 or 15 degrees off the dead run.

With no tide or better wind to go for, I've never seen any deviation from the rhumbline in my years of following Steve Goacher downwind. Loosing 3.5% on every run is tactically naive if it doesn't result in any increase in boat speed.

But the OP was asking about a cruising boat, and in those, keeping the wind slightly over the quarter is always a good idea. But a safe course is usually not high enough to get a cruising chute flying pole-less and out of the shadow of the main. In stronger winds, a poled out, goosewinged genoa also allows good, less rolly, progress than having the genoa flog around behind the main. So learning to handle a pole safely is a useful skill on a cruising boat, even when shorthanded. Once you've done that, choosing which sail to fly from the end is a personal choice.

 

[sarabande]

The best VMG downwind on a displacement boat is usually straight down the rumbline.

Since the "rhumbline" is not related to the angle of the wind, that statement is not necessarily true. Do you mean relative or true wind angle ?

And any polar diagram will show that heading off a RWA/TWA of 180 shows a considerable increase in speed.

 

[doug748]

In an ideal world you would have one of each and use the Cruising chute on a reach'ish and the spinnaker downwind'ish. That is what I do, singlehanded, and it is generally fine. I had two snuffers, but did not get on with them and flogged them. Get the sail down early (as TimBennet has said), as soon as I see 10 downwind knots, then it is time.
....Well unless racing, which sends everyone a bit daft. ;-(

However, for a number of good reasons, you may wish to choose one or the other. Unless you already have some form of pole and spinnaker gear, it will probably be a cruising chute. It will waste some speed, now and again, in putting it onto a reach but will perk up your sailing and be managable, and no fussing with a pole. Tho, of course, if you do have a suitable pole you can use it, not least for the genoa in brisk downwind conditions - this is a very stable, easy and foolproof configuration when shorthanded in conjunction with a furling genoa.

You can always add the spinnaker gear at a later stage if all goes well.

 

[TimBennet]

Since the "rhumbline" is not related to the angle of the wind, that statement is not necessarily true. Do you mean relative or true wind angle ?

The rhumbline on a perfect downwind leg is directly downwind. If you sail along it the true and apparent wind are the same angle.

And any polar diagram will show that heading off a RWA/TWA of 180 shows a considerable increase in speed.

Well I've just run the polars for a Contessa 32 in 12 knots of true wind (approaching the top of the range which cruisers will consider). Coming up ten degrees added .2 of a knot and the speed doesn't climb from 5 knots to 6 knots until you come up 45 degrees. By then you're sailing over 145% of the distance for a 20% increase in speed. Where's the advantage of that?

 

[TimBennet]

. . . I had two snuffers, but did not get on with them and flogged them.

Even with the best (ATN from Fort Lauderdale) we stopped using our stuffer as well, but forgot to flog them.

Both is the ideal combination and on a 35ft boat, we have an asymmetric in 1.5oz and a full spinnaker in .75oz. When it comes to replace the cruising chute I might even consider a 2.2oz as it's far more heavily loaded when used as a blast reacher than the big kite ever is.

 

[lw395]

With no tide or better wind to go for, I've never seen any deviation from the rhumbline in my years of following Steve Goacher downwind. Loosing 3.5% on every run is tactically naive if it doesn't result in any increase in boat speed.

....

That's possibly more to do with your observation than Mr Goacher's actions. 3.5% would be a big amount to head up, but a good look at published polars for many yachts will show that increases in boatspeed is often sufficient to compensate for the extra distance. In many cases the optimum angle to head up will be a lot smaller though.
As the wind is never constant, simply being on the right tack at the right time is just as important.

Here's a random set of polar data I found:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/polar-diagram-cal-40-a-23046.html

At 10knots true breeze, it shows it's marginally beneficial (for that boat!) to head up 30 degrees, compared to sailing dead down wind. I would guess the optimum would be in between.
You have to experiment with your own boat. I found it helpful to know the cosines of a few angles, it helps to find the line between best progress and reaching all over the shop, heeling a lot and not getting there any quicker.

It's also a personal thing, I'm happier playing with the sails and reaching in or out of the bay according to tides, so long as I get to my destination in time for a pint.
Depends on windstrength too, playing the angles is fun in F3, one mistake in F5 can be embarrassing with a big kite.

In asymmetric dinghies we find the biggest gains are in steering correctly to each gust or windshift. Sailing along at any fixed angle is rarely quickest.

Do whatever you enjoy, but I much prefer sailing looking for apparent wind to motoring dead down wind. It's quite common to overtake yachts motoring along in their own private (apparent) flat calm.
My views on kites for cruising are based on big kites and light winds to avoid motoring, rather than using kites in good breezes to get really fast passages. A different philosophy could well be better on a heavier boat or with more crew.

 

[TimBennet]

I have the same IMS VPP program that Tom used in that example. I have been correlating theoretical predictions with practice on all sorts of boats since an Admirals Cup campaign in the 70's.

The statement I was querying was "any polar diagram will show that heading off a RWA/TWA of 180 shows a considerable increase in speed. This is patently untrue and your statement that "many yachts will show that increases in boatspeed is often sufficient to compensate for the extra distance", is more realistic, especially the lighter the boat and broader the stern.

My views on kites for cruising are based on big kites and light winds to avoid motoring, rather than using kites in good breezes to get really fast passages. A different philosophy could well be better on a heavier boat or with more crew.

Exactly, that's why I think a light weight regular spinnaker should't be discounted as it does this job very well and using it is well within the capabilities of most short handed crews.

 

[lw395]

The rhumbline on a perfect downwind leg is directly downwind. If you sail along it the true and apparent wind are the same angle.


Well I've just run the polars for a Contessa 32 in 12 knots of true wind (approaching the top of the range which cruisers will consider). Coming up ten degrees added .2 of a knot and the speed doesn't climb from 5 knots to 6 knots until you come up 45 degrees. By then you're sailing over 145% of the distance for a 20% increase in speed. Where's the advantage of that?

Do the sums on the numbers you give.
Coming up ten degrees to get from 5 to 5.2 knots is clearly advantageous.

But not as advantageous as gybing on a ten degree shift of course!

 

[Topcat47]

I have a parasail. It's a great tool. I often sail single handed and it's a doddle to hoist or dowse with a little help from the engine and the autohelm.

Once it's up, it's very controllable and the boat is much more stable than when goose winging. It can be awkward to gybe, but you can always use the sleeve which takes a little longer. I have two sheets and a downhaul. Stuart at Seateach was a great help at first, but practise makes perfect.

My alterntive for short handed sailing would be a twistle rig but I've actually hoisted my No1 and no2 genoas without a connecting pole in the past (it helps to have a spare halyard) and it worked OK. My current roller gear only has one slide so that alternative isn't available any more. The parasail is better, anyway. You might find the parasailor a better bet for your contessa. but they didn't do one small enough for a 26footer.

 

[KellysEye]

If you are two handed a spinnnaker is a pain, we had one but never used it. What we did use is a twin headsail Twistle rig which being on a furler has an infinite number of sizes for varying winds rather than up or down or changing to a different size spinnaker size.

However the Twistle rig is generally used for long passages for short (up to 50 miles) downwind passges we used a poled out genoa and main with a preventer.

 

[prv]

I've actually hoisted my No1 and no2 genoas without a connecting pole in the past (it helps to have a spare halyard) and it worked OK. My current roller gear only has one slide so that alternative isn't available any more.

On the Army boats we used to hoist two jibs side by side as an alternative to a spinnaker in stronger winds, or at night when not racing. One would be hanked onto the forestay, the other would be free-flying beside it. That worked ok, and would still be possible for you with only one slot in the roller foil.

One of the sails had small carbine hooks instead of piston hanks, and was a bugger if we hoisted it as the free-flying one as inevitably one of the hooks would clip itself onto the forestay between two of the other sail's hanks. We'd then have to bring them both down together before re-hoisting the hanked-on sail.

Pete

 

[lw395]

I have a parasail. It's a great tool. I often sail single handed and it's a doddle to hoist or dowse with a little help from the engine and the autohelm.

Once it's up, it's very controllable and the boat is much more stable than when goose winging. It can be awkward to gybe, but you can always use the sleeve which takes a little longer. I have two sheets and a downhaul. Stuart at Seateach was a great help at first, but practise makes perfect.

My alterntive for short handed sailing would be a twistle rig but I've actually hoisted my No1 and no2 genoas without a connecting pole in the past (it helps to have a spare halyard) and it worked OK. My current roller gear only has one slide so that alternative isn't available any more. The parasail is better, anyway. You might find the parasailor a better bet for your contessa. but they didn't do one small enough for a 26footer.

How does it perform when the wind is not exactly astern?
What kind of windstrengths do you use it in? I assume your boat is a fair size cat?