Do's and Don'ts of sailing in Gale/Force 8+

>Hm! Good words but... your blog shows you sh@t yerselves in very brief downwind F8 transat and haven't been near an ocean since then!

We didn't encounter those winds in Kelly's Eye - hence not talked about on our web site We were taking the J Class Velsheda from Southhampton to Cherbourg many years ago. We left when a gale was forecast (no problem, big steel boat and 21 experienced crew). We got hit by a secondary low that hadn't been forecast. We decided to turn back gybing with storm staysail and trisail. When we got back into the Solent there was still a full gale blowing. The boat at the time had no engine and we picked up her buoy on the second attempt.

Please don't assume people's experience from what little you can find on the Web. If you are interested the biggest boat I've sailed is the J, the smallest an Optimist and the fastest a Volvo 60. Perhaps you would tell us about your sailing experience?

A picture of Velsheda in those conditions is on our site - go to www.kellyseye.net and then to Pictueres then to Antigua to USVI April to June 2009.
 
KellysEye said:
>
We didn't encounter those winds in Kelly's Eye - hence not talked about on our web site We were taking the J Class Velsheda from Southhampton to Cherbourg many years ago. We left when a gale was forecast (no problem, big steel boat and 21 experienced crew).
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Ah, that starts to answer a question was going to ask. Browsing various pages about the J-Class (sorry, I can't remember which one) I saw a claim that the masts are/were so high, compared to the beam, that rigging strength limitations meant they couldn't be sailed safely in much more than F3.

So ... was that just wrong, or have advanced in rigging and or materials raised the limit since the 30s?
 
>that rigging strength limitations meant they couldn't be sailed safely in much more than F3.

The original J's were rigged for any weather. When the races were held in the USA part of the terms were that the UK boats had to sail there. Which is why we always lost, the Yanks could build lighter non-oceangoing boats.

You are right about the later boats. Apart from the really windy Australian series many of the events call off races at a set windspeed. I'm not certain that's beam to length problem more that thery are just lightly built.
 
>- Leave the kicker loose, so the main can spill wind in gusts. On the other hand a flat sail has less power. Anyone has an opinion on this one?

In my experience the last thing you want to do is loosen the kicker in strong winds, the saill wil bag, creating more heel and drag, when what you want (as you said) is a flat sail. So sheet the main in hard and drop it down the mainsheet track. The biggest problem is getting a flat reefed genoa hence flat storm staysails. Obviously trysails are also flat. We had to dig Velsheda's trysail out of a locker, the boat's so big it was a monster size and very heavy sailcloth. It took eight people to lift it, hence the large crew.
 
KellysEye said:
>Hm! Good words but... your blog shows you sh@t yerselves in very brief downwind F8 transat and haven't been near an ocean since then!

We didn't encounter those winds in Kelly's Eye - hence not talked about on our web site We were taking the J Class Velsheda from Southhampton to Cherbourg many years ago. We left when a gale was forecast (no problem, big steel boat and 21 experienced crew). We got hit by a secondary low that hadn't been forecast. We decided to turn back gybing with storm staysail and trisail. When we got back into the Solent there was still a full gale blowing. The boat at the time had no engine and we picked up her buoy on the second attempt.

Please don't assume people's experience from what little you can find on the Web. If you are interested the biggest boat I've sailed is the J, the smallest an Optimist and the fastest a Volvo 60. Perhaps you would tell us about your sailing experience?

A picture of Velsheda in those conditions is on our site - go to www.kellyseye.net and then to Pictueres then to Antigua to USVI April to June 2009.
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Oh, don't worry about tcm. His comment will have either been one of tongue in cheek windups or he'll have been pi$$ed when he posted or most likely both.....
 
KellysEye said:
>that rigging strength limitations meant they couldn't be sailed safely in much more than F3.

The original J's were rigged for any weather. When the races were held in the USA part of the terms were that the UK boats had to sail there. Which is why we always lost, the Yanks could build lighter non-oceangoing boats.
.
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Fred drift here we come, but that's not my understanding. True, the pre-war J's crossed the Atlantic on their own bottoms, but with a delivery mast and rigging. They were fitted with their racing mast etc. once there. The Yanks won with better design and technology for the conditions. Also, their boats and crews were in a better state of tune by virtue of the competitive process for selection of the defender.
 
Robwhelton said:
Can't say I've heard that one before. Why would the kicker prevent you from spilling wind?
I'm coming from a dinghy perspective but have done a fair bit of sailing in stronger conditions, and it's considered a distinct disadvantage to adpot a reefing system which requires you to remove the kicker at any point.

AFAIK, the kicker is vital in depowering the sails, and when sailing off the wind, can prevent the sail from bellying and the boom kicking up (I think the result of this is a 'Chinese Gybe'?)
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with a kicker or a solid vang its hard/impossble to scandalise the main.

the biggest issue I had in my 37 in a blow was the size (width) of the cockpit - a long way to fall with nothing to hold on to. other than that mine looked after me ok.

(now I know why I am not an English teacher)
 
>crossed the Atlantic on their own bottoms, but with a delivery mast and rigging. They were fitted with their racing mast etc. once there.

True but it doesn't detract from the fact the J's hull had to be oceangoing - hence heavier than the USA boats. I wouldn't disagree that the Americans boats were a better design but the rules were purposely set to ensure we had a weight penalty and obviously weight equals less speed. I don't have a problem with people winning with better boats/crews but there should be a level playing field. Not much has changed unfortunately.
 
I remember reading, maybe 50 years ago, a comment about the Js: "A wind above force 4 kept these dinosaurs of yachting at their buoys".
 
duncan_m said:
Comments, advice & ideas invited!
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As Snowleopard hinted, you have not truly experience 35kt to 40kt sailing conditions yet. Such winds in the Solent don't really count, so don't let an exciting sail in the Solent lead to false confidence.

As to heavy weather advice, look after inexperienced crew who might try to apply light weather rope handling techniques when forces are completely different.

Fatigue will be your biggest problem offshore, and not technique or procedure.
 
"In my experience the last thing you want to do is loosen the kicker in strong winds"

If you are going to keep it tight, just make sure the hardware is up to it - I broke 3 kicker blocks on my previous boat!

That was a Midget 31, which was incidentally superb in highish winds. Recall a great run from Burnham to Bradwell in 45knts - ended up berthing in astern when we got there. The journey back in the snow, against the wind, motorsailing to keep the right heading to stay in the channel was less fun... Doing the log, I asked the crew to estimate the wave height. "It's breaking over the decks of the cargo ships" was the answer! I berthed in the wrong spot twice when we got back to Burnham as it was the first time I had come in in the dark. Also did us proud in the hailstorm squalls that laid us flat off Harwich - I ended up standing on the cockpit coaming (which was horizontal instead of vertical!) with the topping lift in my hand ready to take up if the boom looked like dipping the water.... great boat.

One thing to watch for is gybing in higher winds may lift the boom so that it gets caught on the backstay and doesn't go over! Had that happen during a "hat overboard" in the Crouch in 25knts. Whacked the tiller back and stuck the engine on to bring her back. Can't recall if that was one of the kicker-breaking ones, but I wouldn't be surprised. By the time we sorted ourselves out, the hat has been lost - probably run over by the big dredger...
 
A checklist, such as the one posted above, is something you should prepare now.

Ability to deploy the anchor is fine but it needs to be secured unless deployed.

Someone remarked about keeping clear of the windward side of shallows: more generally don't hug coasts and shallow water unless it you are convinced it is sheltered. Deep, open water is usually better.
 
f8

I have had 3 experances of sailing in f8s
1. 130miles Menorca to Bacelona head to wind
2. 1600 miles Barcelona to Cyprus, 2 f8s down wind.

My advice
1. Head to wind use just the sails you need to do 3 to 4 knots, you want to go over the waves and no smash into them and damage things.
If you dont like it turn round 180 degrees and in comparison it will all go carm and you will not beleave you are in the same sea.

2. Down wind, Just youse head sail, loved it 11.8 knots with the head sail the size of a bath towel pulling a fifty footer, drinking eating and chiling with mates best sailing I have ever done.


Would not go beam to, in them condistions, would keep going head to wind turning round and going down wind till conditions got better
 
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I would just add one Proviso.... I would be very cautious about sailing under foresail alone in strong winds.... my experience doing this is that if you get a strong gust i and broach... it can be difficult to let go the sail and regain control... as the boat may not be as inclined to round up... and it can be difficult to release the sheet if the folk in the cockpit are to windward and the winch is doing the stupid fish thing....

This may be worse in a modern awb with a big cockpit... I was knocked down in a Gibsea 33 in the clyde in about 40 knots a few years ago in these circumstances... and again in a Bavaria 32 in about 45 knots in the BVI's.....

My preference now is to use the main heavily reefed.... If you need to turn onto a reach... or go to wind... this gives more options as well... If I am nervous about running direct downwind with the main incase of a chinese... I will tend to very broad reach downwind instead of running..
 
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AngusMcDoon said:
It wouldn't be much fun in those conditions in the Irish Sea.
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A high force 7 on an inland sea maybe not to much a problem with wave heights , but not something i would like to repeat again in the irish sea, from carlingford, (f4) sudden gusted up to f7/8 over 3 hours, on a five hour passage to ardglass during summer cruise in 2003, it heaped up quite steeply, we all got in to ardglass safely, weather forecast no mention of it...
 
photodog said:
I would just add one Proviso.... I would be very cautious about sailing under foresail alone in strong winds.... my experience doing this is that if you get a strong gust i and broach... it can be difficult to let go the sail and regain control... as the boat may not be as inclined to round up... and it can be difficult to release the sheet if the folk in the cockpit are to windward and the winch is doing the stupid fish thing....

This may be worse in a modern awb with a big cockpit... I was knocked down in a Gibsea 33 in the clyde in about 40 knots a few years ago in these circumstances... and again in a Bavaria 32 in about 45 knots in the BVI's.....

My preference now is to use the main heavily reefed.... If you need to turn onto a reach... or go to wind... this gives more options as well... If I am nervous about running direct downwind with the main incase of a chinese... I will tend to very broad reach downwind instead of running..
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I've never heard of a boat broaching under headsail alone unless she was grossly overcanvassed - ours certainly couldn't/wouldn't in any circumstances I can think of. If the wind is aft of the beam and over 25 knots we usually drop the main ASAP - we have been caught out before running in 30 knots apparent in big seas then having to round up and drop the main under engine with a full gale over the deck in huge seas - not conditions I like being up on the coachroof in. (No lazyjacks :-( )

Every boat is different however . . . the Vega goes to windward well under headsail alone, other boats don't, so your point about overall manoeverability is very valid for some boats/rigs.

Notwithstanding the above there will be times when you are out in strong winds with too much sail up and you need to manoevre. I think it is a good thing to regularly practice gybing in stronger winds - this is the most dangerous manoevre, but one you may have to perform occasionally so best to practice in controlled conditions. Those who say never gybe are severly limiting their options.

All of course IMHO - your mileage may vary.

What is the stupid fish thing??

- W
 
colvic987 said:
A high force 7 on an inland sea maybe not to much a problem with wave heights , but not something i would like to repeat again in the irish sea, from carlingford, (f4) sudden gusted up to f7/8 over 3 hours, on a five hour passage to ardglass during summer cruise in 2003, it heaped up quite steeply, we all got in to ardglass safely, weather forecast no mention of it...
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Yuk
that bay gets to look awful big and the shore far away!
Stu
 
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