Dont get too close to a warship

[Talbot]

latest message from QHM:
1. An exclusion zone will be activated by direction from QHM over VHF Channel 11 or 13 and indicated in the movements signal, if time permits. The warship for whom the zone is being activated will display two diamond shapes vertically disposed where best seen by day and show two flashing red lights at the masthead horizontally disposed by night. All escorting vessels will show a blue flashing light by day and by night. <font color="red">Escort personnel will be armed. The exclusion zone shall have a 250m radius around the vessel, or to the limits of navigable water, whichever is closer.</font>
2. When the zone is activated all vessels underway, except those involved in the escort or specifically authorised by the escort commander, are to remain clear of the exclusion zone.
3. Vessels which enter the exclusion zone will, after being warned by at least two of the following methods; radio, flashing light, and voice, be deemed to have the intention of committing a hostile act against the warship being escorted.
4. During the harbour entry or exit phase, in addition to the rules in LNTM 14-02 (Closed Channel), all small craft traffic is to cease through the harbour entrance.

Somebody is going to get shot if these rules are followed.

Will somebody please explain why QHM is using a channel that we dont listen to, cause we are all on channel 16 (listening for the normal radio checks!)

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Yep, i just read the same notice.

Its understandable why they are taking these measures in the current climate, but I did wander what might happen to anybody who is "....... deemed to have the intention of committing a hostile act against the warship being escorted"

Only time will tell.

 

[Piddy]

And another:
"2. No commercial or other private vessel shall navigate:
a) Within 50 metres of any of Her Majesty’s vessels (save submarines) or foreign warships or auxiliaries alongside in HM Naval Base or which is at anchor, a buoy or a mooring within the Dockyard Port of Portsmouth.
b) Within 50 metres of the walls, slipways and boundaries of HM Naval Base and Crown Establishments.
c) Within 100 metres of any submarine alongside in HM Naval Base or which is at anchor, a buoy or a mooring within the Dockyard Port of Portsmouth.
3. Contravention of this General Directive is a criminal Offence."

I'm not too sure how to get out of the harbour in the small boat channel if I can't go within 50m of the Dolphin wall! That's assuming Dolphin is still a "Crown Establishment". Pr'aps they will shoot me for using the SBC or even not using it!

 

[Judders]

Presumably it is because 16 is, as you say, full of Sunseekers and Bayliners making their far more important radio checks.

I would have thought that in the current climate it is common bleeding sence to avoid warships?

That said, HMS President are still struggling to deter canoeists from passing under the jetty as a short cut.

 

[Iota]

QHM Operates on 11 and has done for many years. If in Portsmouth the advice has always been to listen to 11 in case they close the harbour. The RN maybe shrinking but they still control the port.

I don't find it a problem, the LTNM does state warnings will be given etc the MoD Police launches have been armed for at least the last 18 months.

In the current climate I would rather have too much security.

Iota

 

[Judders]

The 50 meter rule around warships is ot new either.

 

[DJE]

[ QUOTE ]
...but I did wander what might happen to anybody who is "....... deemed to have the intention of committing a hostile act against the warship being escorted"...

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope they don't use the same training manual as the Met.

Would small arms fire stop a yacht or Mobo within 50 metres (or even 250 metres) if on autopilot? What would be the chances of hitting innocent bystanders if you opened fire in Portsmouth harbour entrance on a Sunday afternoon?

Its going to be a very tough call for somebody to make.

 

[Stemar]

The notice also says the small boat channel will be closed when warships pass through the entrance and refers to LTNM 14/02.

Unfortunately QHM's site shows 13/02 and 15/02, but no mention of 14/02. Can anyone enlighten me? My gelcoat's in bad enough condition without bullet holes /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Seriously, reading between the lines, it sounds as though the place will be crawling with MODplod before and during movements, so you'd have to try pretty hard to get yourself shot, which is the obvious result of being deemed to have hostile intent.

If they're serious - and they do need to be in the current climate - if a powerful RIB or MOBO if it turned in under full power from 250m away the'll have to be ready to use some fairly serious firepower, and quickly, to be sure of stopping it before it got close enough to the grey funnel job to do any real damage. A back of envelope calculation suggests no more than 30 seconds including the "Oh Sh!t! it's happening" time and the time to give warnings (Would they bother to warn in those circumstances?)

 

[Judders]

There is a big moral difference between a pussers grey full of proffesional seamen, sorry seapersons, and a tube full of Civilians. Thus the ROE would be very different.

That said, if you could sink any ship in the entrance to Portsmouth then it would be a coup.

 

[fireball]

[ QUOTE ]
1. An exclusion zone will be activated by direction from QHM over VHF Channel 11 or 13 and indicated in the movements signal, if time permits.
3. Vessels which enter the exclusion zone will, after being warned by at least two of the following methods; radio, flashing light, and voice

[/ QUOTE ]

So if they don't get time to transmit a warning via chl 11/13 then will they get time to warn everyone in the SBC via voice and flashing light?! I can see why they've done it, but it isn't going to be easy to achieve.
Mind you - its only to the extent of the navigable water - now wheres & what is the definition of navigable water??

navigable water
Water of sufficient depth to allow a boat to travel through it.

Which boat? Whose boat? The warship or the vessel that I'm in?!

 

[[2068]]

Training ?

I would be fascinated to know how they have been trained to respond to a Sealine that has been deemed to have "committed a hostile act". Even after the helmsman has been "neutralised", if the throttle has been pushed forward and the helm lined up roughly straight ahead, the vessel will continue until sunk, blown up completely, or machinery disabled.

"It's a shaftdrive, aim for the centre..."
"No no, that one's got Z-drives, aim for the stern..."
"Petrol, go for the tank !"
"Bavaria: shoot the keel off"

etc. etc.

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Re: Training ?

I think you would find that a Goalkeeper or even a GPMG will make enough holes to cause sinking in a very short time indeed.

 

[bilbobaggins]

I do very much hope this applies to jetskis.......

Perhaps we can submit a plea to extend the exclusion zone all the way to 5 miles offshore, right round the UK?

Could I join the Naval Reserve and get a mini-4.5 inch gun or a twin GPMG for my foredeck, to help with the problem?

/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[[2068]]

Re: Training ?

Goalkeeper:

A highly effective automatic Close In Weapons System (CIWS) designed to shoot down missiles, aircraft, and jetskis which have evaded the outer layers of a ship's defences. Designed in Holland as an autonomous system, Goalkeeper has its own radars, fire control computers and a seven barrel 30mm Gatling gun firing 4200 rounds per minute - that's 70 rounds per second. The system is designed to automatically engage targets between 350 and 1500 metres away.

 

[Judders]

[ QUOTE ]
I do very much hope this applies to jetskis.......

Perhaps we can submit a plea to extend the exclusion zone all the way to 5 miles offshore, right round the UK?

Could I join the Naval Reserve and get a mini-4.5 inch gun or a twin GPMG for my foredeck, to help with the problem?

/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I rather suspect a minutes worth of ammo for gpoalkeeper ould adversley affect your buoyancy.

 

[Kristal]

DEFCON 3

I was at a party a year or two back, and met a chap recently demobbed from being a helmsman aboard a US warship - not sure what class. He said that on Sept 11th 2001, all US vessels worldwide were instructed to put to sea and navigate in circles with a large exclusion zone in place (can't remember the size of it now). Apparently, there were a number of charter yachts not listening out to the VHF warnings coming perilously close to them. Most of them got the message when the ship sounded a klaxon and trained all the short-range weapons systems on them, but one or two didn't know how close they came to being summarily destroyed. With the DEFCON level at 3, I don't know whether a shot across the bows would have preceeded an attack on an appearingly civillian target...

/<

 

[fireball]

Re: DEFCON 3

Just 'ad a look at the Portsmouth Chart ... if them warships pass down the middle of the channel inside the harbour, then all them on A,B and a bit of C pontoon in Gosport Marina are gonna have to squeeze up a bit /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Are they applying the same rules to the ferries as well?

 

[ValleyForge]

B***er the diamonds and the flashing lights, surely with all that lot going on and the attendant sweep RIBS etc. you'll all get out of the way ? In the good ol' days though when we sailed on the Clyde we always got a cheery wave from the guy with the sub-machine gun on the conning tower of the nukes. Different times though, that was when we had M.A.D. and we all felt safe. Sounds exciting though, it'll be a sight to see !

 

[roger]

What do I do if ?

If I've just come through the entrance and the navy deides to come out? I can't get more than 200 yards away without running aground. I cn't go back out because I'm slower than him and the small boat channel is closed. The only hope is to run aground and swim to the beach.

 

[nonchalant]

Re: What do I do if ?

The navy take ages to move around in the dockyard or near the entrance, and if you haven't been stopped by a police patrol or navy tug from going through you should be OK.

These rules have been around since 2003 and on my reading the new ones are a relaxation, since the exclusion zone was previously 500m whereas now it's 250m.

As for the ferries, yes they get stopped too. A couple of weeks ago we were heading up the harbour and found the outbound Le Havre ferry and the French high-speed thing both treading water at the end of Fountain Lake while a warship berthed.

I can't say this is something I can get worked up about - it's a small price for being able to use the harbour the way we can.