Don't drag your anchor!

[[176172]]

I'd maybe consider going one size bigger if the next size up wasn't a lot bigger/heavier than the recommended size. Surely an anchor that's way bigger/heavier than a manufacturer's recommended size would be more difficult to set properly...

A larger anchor will of course set from a smaller boat, it will do what it is designed to do, the pull on the rode does that, whether its a 30, 40 or more attached to the other end. Its size will be an advantage from then on as it will, just by its physical size, be stronger and take a lot more to make it drag.

 

[geem]

A larger anchor will of course set from a smaller boat, it will do what it is designed to do, the pull on the rode does that, whether its a 30, 40 or more attached to the other end. Its size will be an advantage from then on as it will, just by its physical size, be stronger and take a lot more to make it drag.

How do you know a larger anchor will set from a smaller boat? Do you have a 300hp outboard on this small boat to make sure you can dig it in? It might be the pull on the rode that does it but not if you are setting it with an egg wisk! It simply wont set. What has stronger got to do with it! Boats rarely break anchors or snap chain. Anchors just drag and boats end up on rocks

 

[Neeves]

A small anchor will set more deeply in the substrate than a larger one. Both if set from the same yacht will have exactly the same hold - the bigger one does not develop more hold than the smaller one. The larger one will set higher above the seabed surface and be in less consolidate sand (or thinner mud). If the wind picks up in the same direction as the tension applied by the engine iboth will set more deeply - if the wind picks up in another direction ithe big one may unseat (tip over). Seabed strength increases with the square of depth. As an anchor dives it buries shank and buried shank resists sideways force, like veering. The small one will have the same hold as the big one - but be well buried and will be better able to resist veering.

These observations have been tested and accepted (GHA actually and recently posted a link to an article in Practical Sailor on veering pointing out the advantage of burying shank). I have photographs of shallow set anchors, as does Noelex of his Mantus on his Cruiser Forum thread where the heel of his anchor stands proud, just ready to have the chain drag under the heel and trip the anchor (as also happens with a 'slightly set' Fortress).

Find me any data, forget emotive 'proof', suggesting a bigger anchor is more safe than one of the recommended size.

Find me any anchor spread sheet that has been altered because of the numbers of anchors that dragged forcing the anchor maker to make amendments.


To illustrate the absence in objectivity in anchor choice and triumph of the hype over sage advice: Morgans Cloud found a number of cases where a Rocna failed (so anchors do drag) and allowed yachts to end up on beaches. Morgans Cloud removed their recommendation of the anchor and use a Spade as their primary. They attributed the failure to the fluke clogging, denying the anchor the ability to re-set. . Work by Practical Sailor underlined the issue. Did anyone take notice? Additionally some years ago 'holding capacity' and 'my anchor holds more than the competition' was 'the rage' (literally) - today people buy anchors without any test data at all and hype (subjectively) about performance.

Jonathan

 

[[176172]]

How do you know a larger anchor will set from a smaller boat? Do you have a 300hp outboard on this small boat to make sure you can dig it in? It might be the pull on the rode that does it but not if you are setting it with an egg wisk! It simply wont set. What has stronger got to do with it! Boats rarely break anchors or snap chain. Anchors just drag and boats end up on rocks

You exaggerate 'small', a 32, is not an ex whisk, and I was not referring to a rowing boat, can dig in a larger certainly modern anchor as they are designed to do. A 42 + will do the same. Quite why you expect only a 300hp engine capable of digging in a larger anchor hardly a relevant argument. Anchors usually drag for various reasons, most certainly, as a result of not having been dug in correctly, often from poor practice, insufficient scope and of course the sea bed.

 

[zoidberg]

I note this evening, reminding me of multiple previous occasions, that Navigation Marks such as the West Tinker WCM light have dragged again. Even Trinity House have their challenges..... that location outside of Plymouth is about equidistant between annotations of 'G', 'GWd', and 'R'.

 

[V1701]

A larger anchor will of course set from a smaller boat, it will do what it is designed to do, the pull on the rode does that, whether its a 30, 40 or more attached to the other end. Its size will be an advantage from then on as it will, just by its physical size, be stronger and take a lot more to make it drag.

I personally am happy with what I now have (and after all that's what all this is fundamentally about) which is a known to be good anchor of the recommended size, bought to replace a copy of an old anchor design. It seems logical to me that I will be able to set it more deeply (and therefore better) than I could an oversized anchor and that is one of the reasons for my choice. The additional advantage of weight saving on a small boat with no windlass was also a factor. While in some circumstances a larger/heavier anchor might be better, to argue that it's always better just doesn't follow as others have pointed out...

 

[Neeves]

You exaggerate 'small', a 32, is not an ex whisk, and I was not referring to a rowing boat, can dig in a larger certainly modern anchor as they are designed to do. A 42 + will do the same. Quite why you expect only a 300hp engine capable of digging in a larger anchor hardly a relevant argument. Anchors usually drag for various reasons, most certainly, as a result of not having been dug in correctly, often from poor practice, insufficient scope and of course the sea bed.

I might remind you we have been assured that a large anchor allows you to anchor at short scope. Of course not an iota of evidence has been posted to support the claim, no at single example of usage has been quoted and I personally think it a load of rubbish. Every test conducted on scope concludes that at a shorter scope the holding capacity of an anchor is reduced. If you have an engine of Xhp your can develop a tension in your rode of ykg - that is the hold that will develop on any anchor you deploy. A large anchor will set less deeply than a small one (if it set more deeply (larger engine) it would have more hol)d. A more shallow set anchor will be more liable to capsize if side loaded.

What is remarkable is that the claims of the big anchor being safer are widespread - but there is no data to support the experience. Many people buy anchors of the recommended size and have no bad experiences (and my guess is the silent majority that do not inhabit forum buy the recommended size - as there is nothing to influence them to do otherwise). If a big anchor were safer insurance companies would be demanding bigger anchors.

I suspect if you were to challenge most people they would have no idea of the potential hold of their anchor, in both sand and mud. They would have no idea of the tension that could be developed by their engine. They would have no idea of the tension that might develop in their yacht under a range of windspeed. If you went round an anchorage many would not understand what an snubber is, anyone who did know that a snubber might be would think it 2m of, any, rope and very few would actually use on of 10m length and sized, diameter, for their yacht. People basically - buy blind and offer little or no support for their anchor.

Bigger anchors benefit anchor makers - and so far no-one else.

I do admit that people might sleep more soundly - as they satisfy the cries of the raucous - and the idea of anchoring over night is to sleep soundly. However it seems an expensive exercise - when people with anchors of the recommended size also sleep soundly.

It is also interesting that the 'bigger is better' mantra only appears to have developed when we had access to better anchors. I'd take a punt and say it developed post 2006. I don't recall articles in YM/PBO etc advocating the practice of buying a bigger CQR, Bruce or Delta. But that was a long time ago - and my memory may forget anything that undermines my position.

Jonathan

 

[dulls]

My subjective view is that scope is more important than the anchor. Dont buy copies of anchors, by the proper bruce or cqr etc. I have used a bruce and a cqr and my last anchor was a rocna. The rocna was the one i had the most confidence in. All subjective by the way. I always dug the anchor in slowly, most probably no more than one to one and a half knots. I have a little experience with admiralty and the danforth but not enough that would help this forum.
What ever anchor you buy you may have to man handle it at some time so that should be part of your guide to choosing weight. I am not young any more. If you ever get the chance, lay out your chain on a concrete surface and then try to drag it. I have a feeling that most of the time you are at anchor it is the chain holding you and not the anchor. I do think the more modern designs are better than the older traditional designs. I have no facts to back that view however. I would go a Rocna again or a Manson delta etc. This is very interesting.

 

[sailaboutvic]

My subjective view is that scope is more important than the anchor. Dont buy copies of anchors, by the proper bruce or cqr etc. I have used a bruce and a cqr and my last anchor was a rocna. The rocna was the one i had the most confidence in. All subjective by the way. I always dug the anchor in slowly, most probably no more than one to one and a half knots. I have a little experience with admiralty and the danforth but not enough that would help this forum.
What ever anchor you buy you may have to man handle it at some time so that should be part of your guide to choosing weight. I am not young any more. If you ever get the chance, lay out your chain on a concrete surface and then try to drag it. I have a feeling that most of the time you are at anchor it is the chain holding you and not the anchor. I do think the more modern designs are better than the older traditional designs. I have no facts to back that view however. I would go a Rocna again or a Manson delta etc. This is very interesting.

I have to tollaly disagree with you sorry. Unless there is zero wind or current when yes the weight of the chain lis doing its bit , any other time it's the anchor , just remove the anchor and lay out you chain then leave it in gear in tick over and see how much your chain doing , ( tick over in gear that about a whiff of air ) .
I Am also not as young as I was but if I lay my 10mm chain on the ground all 80 metres I have no problem dragging it .
I'm sure other will now come and give you there view .

 

[dulls]

I have to tollaly disagree with you sorry. Unless there is zero wind or current when yes the weight of the chain lis doing its bit , any other time it's the anchor , just remove the anchor and lay out you chain then leave it in gear in tick over and see how much your chain doing , ( tick over in gear that about a whiff of air ) .
I Am also not as young as I was but if I lay my 10mm chain on the ground all 80 metres I have no problem dragging it .
I'm sure other will now come and give you there view .

Not sure if you understood my comment. Many a time i have anchored, dived on it and the anchor is still dug in the opposite way to the way i am lying with the chin in a nice arc back to the boat. I was pointing out that chain has some power as well to hold your boat. It can take a bit more than zero and i laced everything with the term subjective.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Not sure if you understood my comment. Many a time i have anchored, dived on it and the anchor is still dug in the opposite way to the way i am lying with the chin in a nice arc back to the boat. I was pointing out that chain has some power as well to hold your boat. It can take a bit more than zero and i laced everything with the term subjective.

It's not unusual to see the anchor has not been disturb in little wind and the boat has dance around the chain , don't expect the same results as soon as the wind picks up a bit more .
There comes a point when other then a few mts of chain is laying on the ground , what holding the boat then ?
it's not the chain I can tell you .

The biggest mistake cruisers will tell you is people just dump a load of chain and don't set their anchor with the same thought as your posting , ( the chain will hold them ) the results is ,
they drag .
Them dragging isn't the problem , the problem is the poor bugger they hit or get tangled up with , especially when it's blowing hard and in darkness .

 

[sailaboutvic]

Just to add to my last posting to make my point Dulls .We are anchored on the south of France , every day these day power cabin cruisers boats come out of the marina for the day , they turn up around 10sh drop a load of chain and jump in and swim / sun bath have lunch , around early after noon the wind start to pick up a bit every day boat dragging , you think they would learn but the next day the same boat do the same again and they drag again ,
There only one way to anchor , set the anchor .

 

[Neeves]

The simplest way to test the concept that the chain holds the yacht and the anchor is simply a decoration at the end of the rode is easy.

Take the anchor off the rode, deploy all you chain and see what happens.

The trouble is the member who mentioned this stupid idea (that chain is a major contributor to hold) - and I use stupid as I cannot think of anything more polite) - is that someone might read those few posts and think there is science attached to the concept.

Chain does contribute to hold, but its contribution is simply not significant.

There is a pertinent reminder as introduction on this forum - that seems apt:

I quote

Any content, information, or advice found on social media platforms and the wider Internet, including forums such as YBW, should NOT be acted upon unless checked against a reliable, authoritative source, and re-checked, particularly where personal health and liberty is at stake. Seek professional advice/confirmation before acting on such at all times.

end quote

But Dulls - try your chain without anchor and report back.

Jonathan

 

[sailaboutvic]

The simplest way to test the concept that the chain holds the yacht and the anchor is simply a decoration at the end of the rode is easy.

Take the anchor off the rode, deploy all you chain and see what happens.

The trouble is the member who mentioned this stupid idea (that chain is a major contributor to hold) - and I use stupid as I cannot think of anything more polite) - is that someone might read those few posts and think there is science attached to the concept.

Chain does contribute to hold, but its contribution is simply not significant.

There is a pertinent reminder as introduction on this forum - that seems apt:

I quote

Any content, information, or advice found on social media platforms and the wider Internet, including forums such as YBW, should NOT be acted upon unless checked against a reliable, authoritative source, and re-checked, particularly where personal health and liberty is at stake. Seek professional advice/confirmation before acting on such at all times.

end quote

But Dulls - try your chain without anchor and report back.

Jonathan

I can't under stand why after the hundreds of posting about anchoring why people still don't get it ,

Having different option on chain size , anchors types is one thing but the concept of anchoring , come on guys enough is enough .

why spend good money on mooring line when they going to get worn out and have to be replace , why not just leave the boat in marina berth and drop all your chain .

Oh god what have I said now even a marina won't be safe to leave the boat .

@ Neeves your posting said what I wanted to say but if I wrote it , it would had sounded much ruder so better left to someone like you

 

[Neeves]

Vic,

Stop worrying about a rap on the knuckles - say what you think (with some accomodation for Political Correctness). We need the voice of reason.

Jonathan

 

[zoidberg]

I s'pose that 'cognative dissonance', or the staggering arrogance of using every possible quirk of self-deception to sustain one's own daft faerie-notion in the face of massed logic, evidence and deeply-experienced advice, is what keeps some politicians and some 'anchor wankers' welded to their immutable notions.

Some of them are dangerous, and some are just plain silly. Sometimes both....

 

[noelex]

Not sure if you understood my comment. Many a time i have anchored, dived on it and the anchor is still dug in the opposite way to the way i am lying with the chin in a nice arc back to the boat. I was pointing out that chain has some power as well to hold your boat. It can take a bit more than zero and i laced everything with the term subjective.

Dulls, I think you are describing a situation similar to that pictured below. In this case even though the Rocna is facing the wrong way it still providing the majority of the holding power. It takes a reasonable amount of force on the anchor before it starts rotating:

There are some times such as the photo below where the chain is providing all the holding power, but unless the chain is stuck under a rock or in heavy weed this will only occur if the wind is light:

The chain on its own only has very slight holding power. The chain does assist the anchors holding ability in some circumstances primarily by modifying the direction of pull, and helping the initial setting of the anchor, but this it is still the anchor probiding the holding power even when this occurs.

 

[zoidberg]

I recall lying in the dark of a forecabin berth, decades ago, somewhere down in the Channel Isles and listening to the chain 'grumbling' - as a hint that the tide was changing and it was high time to get up and do a 'quaint old-fashioned anchor watch' until things settled back down again, or didn't.

That's what I was there for....

 

[GHA]

I recall lying in the dark of a forecabin berth, decades ago, somewhere down in the Channel Isles and listening to the chain 'grumbling' - as a hint that the tide was changing and it was high time to get up and do a 'quaint old-fashioned anchor watch' until things settled back down again, or didn't.

That's what I was there for....

Much better technology these days to do that for you so you can stay in bed

Though I'll often wake with the rumble as well, just don't bother getting up

 

[dulls]

It's not unusual to see the anchor has not been disturb in little wind and the boat has dance around the chain , don't expect the same results as soon as the wind picks up a bit more .
There comes a point when other then a few mts of chain is laying on the ground , what holding the boat then ?
it's not the chain I can tell you .

The biggest mistake cruisers will tell you is people just dump a load of chain and don't set their anchor with the same thought as your posting , ( the chain will hold them ) the results is ,
they drag .
Them dragging isn't the problem , the problem is the poor bugger they hit or get tangled up with , especially when it's blowing hard and in darkness .

You confuse my post or mis read it. I always set my anchor. I made an observation that often when you anchor you end up with the chain rather than the anchor holding you. It was an observation and a generalisation. I have never recommended anchoring like that. I was not talking about anchoring in a gale etc but in the other 99 times we anchor when the weather is benign. I was making an observation, that is all.