Doing your own survey, what to look for

[PEJ]

Further to the "why bother with a survey" thread, comments were made about doing your own survey that I found interesting.

I used to be involved in house building so when I moved house I did not bother with a survey because I figured I knew enough of the basics to look for potential problems myself.

The same could not be said of my boat knowledge, so I wonder if anyone could give any tips for the main things to look for when surveying a boat. Things like window seals and loose fitting doors are pretty obvious I suppose but what should you look for in the engine bay, hull, etc, etc?

 

[adrianb]

MBM or was it MBY, did a DIY survey guide a while back.

Personally I'd always have a "professional" one, after doing the "basics" myself.

For others it might depend on value of what you're buying. I'd still have a pro one though !


Adrian
www.cleanandshiny.co.uk

 

[jhr]

These are purely my own thoughts. I'm not a surveyor and I'm completely ignorant about virtually every subject under the sun.

Hull: look for any signs of stress cracking, particularly underneath. This will require you to scrape the antifoul back to the gelcoat at several random places and have a good look. Also have a good look for any signs of osmosis - bubbles in the gelcoat containing a vinegary smelling liquid. Look for any sign, inside, that bulkheads or bearers are coming loose or that anything is cracking or delaminating. Have a close look at any scrapes or scratches on the topsides: have they penetrated the gelcoat? If so, has water got into them? Is the superstructure bonded to the hull properly and is there any sign, internally, of leaks from above (staining, mould etc on the headlining or fabric). Once again, look for stress cracking, particularly where stanchions meet the deck etc. Are there any signs of major repairs having been done at any point? If so, I'd definitely call in the experts at this point or, more likely, walk away.

In the engine bay, I don't really know what to look for, except to consider if they look well-cared for and that things like oil filters, impellers etc are in good nick. If the owner has a sheaf of invoices for servicing so much the better. Are the engines and shafts (if equipped) securely mounted or are they held in place by self-tapping screws (naming no names /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif)? Do the engines start easily from cold and/or are there clouds of smoke? Do any problems start emerging at running revs and temperatures? Any funny noises? Are the oil pressure and temperature gauges steady? Does the oil look like it's changed regularly? Do the gears engage and disengage smoothly?

Is any electronic kit in good repair and working? Is it more than 5 years old? If so you'll probably have to tear it out and start again. Is the safety equpiment in-date and in good condition? Are all the domestics (heat, light, water, fridge etc) working? Are the beers cold?

Personally, I'd get a surveyor in. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Wiggo]

Start with a copy of an old survey you had done and use that as an aide memoire. I suppose the simple answer is that nothing should be loose and everything should work. Beyond that, you need to lift every hatch, open every locker and peer into the dark recesses. Anything remotely structural will probably show as stress crazing on the outside but you'll find the real evidence if you can peer under the floor. If there's anything that doesn't feel right then dig deeper, get in a professional or walk away.

A well looked after boat should be obvious and should have few problems.

 

[gjgm]

in part depends on whether you think its something to negotiate on price about, or to make yourself aware of a possible minor future issue. I dont believe when buying a second hand boat you can expect it to be new, but you can expect it to be in working order.
To that end, imagine it was your boat already;what would you keep an eye on and check as part of owning the boat? Ok, all the daily functions..lights,horns,hob,wiper and so on. Check any sea cocks work smoothly;check any hatches open/ close,windows and so on. Everything should be dry and smell clean. Open everything and peer in with a torch. Check all deck fittings, and grp crazing (which isnt too unusual and can be cosmetic/minor), bow thruster/, windlass. Check engine bay; you want it ot be dry and looked in order, of course. by now you should be getting a good idea of how well the boat has been looked after.
The hull.. well I m no surveyor, but I cant think too many newish powerboats that spend winter out of the water anyway are likely to have any osmosis. With a tiny hammer/screwdriver tap along the hull to check for any hollows.
Well, thats what I ve done, and if I come acrosss something I cant assess, call someone in to look at that.
I ve certainly had surveys that were a complete waste of time. Basically said its a boat with a pointy end and a blunt end and looks ok to me. And heres my bill. After that, I decided I could do 95pct of the checking myself, and just call in a pro if I was worried about something. But I guess the older a boat gets, and the bigger it gets, maybe the harder it becomes to make a decent laymans assessment.
Still, if you are going down this route, I'd do all this when looking over the boat prior to any offer. At a sea trial check engine gauges etc.. same as you would in normal use.
Check all documentation BEFORE any offer, and dont get pissed about.. demand to see it; not its in the other office rubbish. Check servvice records are complete.
If everything seems good at this stage, well it probably is good. But DO NOT make any offer and DO NOT pay any deposit until you have seen everything you want to see, including the VAT in your hand. Coz, thats when all the crap starts.

 

[bvickers]

Some time ago, whilst taking a sabatical from work, I got to helping one of my firends who is a yacht surveyor. Now, I'm fairly practical and understand boats fairly well, but I was astonished at how certain faults can be hidden - either deliberately or otherwise and would just not be apparent to the untrained eye.

I can't emphasise strongly enough that buying a second hand boat without a survey is a complete false economy - I'd strongly advise you consider getting a pro in.

 

[jfm]

PEJ i think you ask a good question. Even for folks who hire a pro surveyor, it's surely worth doing your own AS WELL.

To add to all the other comments:
1. If you can take a jar of oil from each engine send off for £40 analysis. Takes a week
2. Insist the engines are cold when you view, and start them from cold and listen very carefully. Take a mechanicy mate if necessary
3. Detial check of electrical connections outside
4. Buy a moisture meter if you want to do readings rahter than have a pro do them
5. Examine exhaust elbows for tiny leaks
6. Google and ask around, eg this forum. About the boat in general, and about the specific one you're buying. Eg there is a newly advertised flybridge 58er in the new issue MBY that I know has hit rocks and had a prop ripped out. All repaired quite well, but becuase it had to be fixed in a hurry they fitted what props they could get, not the correct ones, and it does 3kts less top speed. I even have a photo taken of its plotter screen (track was turned on) showing it hit the rocks. (I wasn't on board, before you ask!) Now if anyone posted on the forum saying they are gonna buy it I'll tellem this history. Collectively across the forum, there is loads of detial filed-away info like this
7. On newer boats many panels remove with velcro, so remove them and look behind. Look for corrosion - if the electrical connections on the interior ceiling lights are tarnished the boat hasn't been kept dry, frexample
8. Wobble all bearings esp rudders to feel for play
9. If different engine hours each side ask why
10 visually examine engines for oil leaks. Easier if they're white not green. If engines very cleaned up suspect oil leaks have been cleaned off
11. Test trim tabs, they're not bullet proof construction usually
12. Look hard at portholes for signs of leaks
13. Look at/smell toilet system

There's prob loads more

 

[Roadhog]

I have just refused a 30ft Flybridge Boat because of a bad survey. It looked OK on the surface (easy and obvious bit) but down in the engine bay, nasty things lurked. The chap I used, was a specialist on the particular engines involved (I sought him out!!) so he knew the issues - and sure enough they were there. You cannot be an expert on everything so pay the expertise on the expensive bits that are more complex - engines / gearbox / hull. You can spot the obvious and probably just negotiate a discount. Its the hidden terrors that you need the experience on. Just my two-penneth....

 

[David_Jersey]

Engines (esp on a MOBO) would deffo be worth getting an expert in for.

But for me on any boat the Engine is the place to start - if the engine / bay looks like a bag of sh#te IMO a very good indication of how much TLC the owner has given / spent on the rest of her........not neccesarily a reason not to buy, but IMO a good heads up.

As already said, lots of Googles!...to give you a good idea where and what to look for on the specific model.

Ask the owner outright "Anything not working / needs repair / has been repaired".....if he forgets anything that he should have known about - say bye bye....in practice most folk find it hard to lie face to face, at least outright lies.....usually waffle.

 

[oldgit]

Ist rule of boat buying...Take a long hard look a the owner..will tell you more about the boat than a dozen surveyors.

 

[thefatlady]

It was my observation which prompted you, so FWIW here is my check list.

It is only a prompt to try to make sure I don't miss things. I don't claim it is complete or even comprehensive and is in no particular order. The detail for each item is largely common sense/experience and there are always notes and additional items.

A comprehensive and detailed set of photos is VERY important.


CHECK LIST

OUTSIDE
Hull port
Hull s/bd
Bowthruster
Antifoul
Deck forward
Deck port
Deck s/bd
Bow locker
Chain
Anchor
Fairlead
Winch
Winch controls
Gipsy
Capstan
Rails
Stanchions
Grab rails
Hatches
Stern
Covers – fabric, zips, windows, stays.
Winter covers
Tonneau
Wipers
Cleats
Teak
Arch
Aerials – radar, GPS, radio, TV, spotlight
Logos
Windscreen
Cover catches
Shore power connector
Boarding ladder
Nav lights

TENDER
Dinghy – hull, sponsons, floor, transom
Outboard
Tank
Cover
Davits – falls, winches, mounting
Belly bands

COCKPIT
Nav equipment radar/plotter/autopilot/GPS
Engine instrumentation/speedo/log/tanks
Levers
Engine controls
Trim tab controls
Anchor control/chain counter
Radio/speaker/plug/socket
Trim controls
Compass
Switches
Spotlight
Carpet
Rear door
Wet bar
Fridge/ice maker
Seats helm/navigator/social
Wheel
Controls
GRP
Speakers
Lockers
Table
Table legs/sockets/fold away
Sunbed fill-in
Bow cushion
Fuel cocks
Electric isolators/shore power
Hatches
Garage controls/pumps/actuators
Deck shower
Passerelle controls

EQUIPMENT
Winch
Wipers
Washers
Heater
Demisters
Spotlight
Maplight
12V socket
Water pump
Generator
Aircon units/pumps/drains
Bow thruster
Passerelle
Passerelle pumps/rams

HULL INTERNAL
Shower pump
Bilge pumps –
forward,
amidships,
engine room
Skin fittings
Earth bonding
Stop cocks
Hoses – toilet, shower
Bilge condition
Reinforcement
Bearers
Bulkheads

ENGINES
General
Cleanliness
Mountings
Oil leaks
Water leaks
Oil filters
Fuel filters
Water strainers
Belts
Water levels
Anodes
Bilge condition
Turbos
Intercoolers/flanges
Batteries
Generator
Fuel cocks
Water pumps
Engine room heater

OUTDRIVES/SHAFTS/STEERING
General
Props
Rope cutters
P-brackets
Cutlass bearings
Shafts, condition, alignment
Shaft logs
Stern glands
Rudders
Rudder pintles/greaser
Steering ram
Autopilot pumps
Position sender
Outdrive rams
Hoses
Pivots
Bellows
Clips
Prop + transom anodes
Trim tabs/anodes
Trim tab rams/actuators
Trim tab pumps

SALOON
General
Cockpit door/lock/operation
Doors – shower, toilet, aft cabin, forward cabin
Carpet
Seats
Switch panel/cut-outs
Lockers
Door catches
Floor storage
Portholes
Oven
Hob
Microwave
Fridge
Sinks
Worktops
Table
Radio
TV
Lights
Lockers
Power points
Other

AFT CABIN
General
Porthole(s)
Sink
Cushions
Fill-ins
Lights
Hatch
Wardrobe
Power points
Lockers
Tanks
Aircon

AFT HEAD
Condition
Operation
Cleanliness
Toilet bowl
Seat
Pump operation
Vac/electric pump
Macerator
Basin
Shower
Shower sump
Shower pump
Head porthole
Head fittings
Head mirrors

FORWARD CABIN
General
Bed
Drawer
Lockers
Wardrobe
Power points
Doors
Mirror
Aircon

SHOWER
Condition
Operation
Shower
Shower screen
Shower sump
Shower pump
Wash basin
Tap
Porthole
Lockers
Fittings
Mirrors

TOILET
Condition
Operation
Cleanliness
Toilet bowl
Seat
Pump operation
Holding tank
Vac/electric pump
Macerator

NOTES









TOOLS

Spanners
Penknife
DVM
Mirror
Torch
Screwdrivers
Paper
Pen
Q-tips
Wipes
Camera

 

[jfm]

Is that list not dangerously long? Just imho, but you should ignore things that don't impact your decision to buy/not buy the boat. If it has/doesn't have, or has but not working, fuel cocks, compass, etc, you'd still buy the boat, right? i mean it doesn't affect your decision one iota. So surely you should only survey things that could impact your decision (either buy/not buy, or price chip). Hence need a much shorter list imho

 

[gjgm]

again, I think it s a twofold check. One is your own personal assessment of the boat, the second, which perhaps was more the question, was what is of risk and monetary concern.
There are different surveys that you can have of course, but paying someone to check whether the basics are ok seems a waste to me, as presumably you are going to check these yourself in the normal course of boating, and not call a surveyor everytime you use the boat. I think people can go a bit over the top on surveys, but , well, each t his own.
The oil analysis is only meaningful if you know how fresh the oil is, I believe.

 

[thefatlady]

Yes, it is long, but if it's on the list, I can ignore it or not or give it a cursory glance or a tick as I wish. Many small things sometimes add up. A list that is too long doesn't matter. One that is too short does.

Your point about, for example, fuel cocks is taken, but I have experienced a bad design, part of which involved the fuel take-offs for both engines and the generator being from one tank only. It would have been a pain to correct and would be a factor in my decision. It is not necesarily just about the fuel cocks' (or anything else's) condition, but also their function.

 

[PEJ]

I am delighted that this turned out to be a very interesting thread. Thanks for all your replies.

thefatlady's list is very thorough. I think, armed with that list, you could check out all the items as much as you could and if anything obvious came up you could walk away. That way you have saved the cost of a survey. If nothing was too bad then I guess I would get a profesional in to do his stuff incase I missed something.

 

[rich]

[ QUOTE ]
and it does 3kts less top speed.

[/ QUOTE ]
3 kts, chuck some junk overboard /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[hlb]

Christ, if I get 18 I'm happy, 22/ 3 with clean bum. Book says 27. Well I got 25 once for a bit once for about three minites, whilst the revs went crasy. Lets see a proper boat test. Like stick it in the sea. What does it produce six months later