Does the price of a survey reflect the quality of the survey?

[mlt2819]

Hi,

I'm looking for a surveyor for a pre-purchase survey. Most of the quotes I've received are in the region of £4-500, which seems reasonable to me, and is roughly 5% of the boat's price. However there are a couple quotes that are two to three times that amount. Whilst I still need to do a thorough comparison of how/why there are a wide range of prices being offered by surveyors (they're all in within a similar area to the boat)... at the moment what's being offered between the low cost and high cost quotes looks pretty similar. When it comes to choosing a surveyor, would you say that the price accurately reflects the quality of the survey/comprehensiveness of the report, or do some surveyors simply charge more? It's possible the lower cost quotes are simply because they're independent surveyors not working within a company with multiple staff/high overheads etc.? It's possible too that some of these higher quotes come with insurance reports and engine testing by a qualified engineer. I will need to double check...

Any input/wisdom would be much appreciated. I just want to make sure I'm not being irresponsible with my cash and increasing my risk by choosing to use a lower-cost surveyor.

Thanks!

 

[Trident]

Most surveyors in the UK at least are professionally accredited and so work to a similar guideline. There are levels you can discuss with them - often you'll find surveys say things like "engines were not tested but appeared in good condition" or "such and such was not accessible at time of survey" which means some things get missed. Other surveyors may charge more because they will access everything but its probably best to ensure the ones you have to choose from are all properly qualified and then call a few to discuss what you want from them and pick who you're comfortable with.

A survey will no doubt scare the life out of you - they have to find something wrong and they will make everything sound like its as bad as it can get and will sink the boat the second it touches water - but thats all to stop them being sued if they miss something. I had 30 pages of stuff that sounded horrible on the last survey I had and when speaking to the surveyor in person afterwards he pointed out what a good boat it was and that most of what was in there didn't need addressing - for example there was a patch of fibreglass on the hull with a void and insufficient resin which constitutes a weakness in structure which could cause ...blah blah blah. In person he says, its about the size of a 5 p coin, its from when the boat was moulded and has been there without issue for 30 years so I wouldn't even bother drilling and injecting resin etc; just leave it alone but if you ever hit annoying in that area check it carefully afterwards. So try to find someone you can talk to as thats very useful and reassuring after you read the scary report

 

[Irish Rover]

I needed a surveyor in Greece last October and I was guided by recommendations from posters on this forum. If I were you I’d post details of your required location and what type of survey you need and there will probably be someone who has had a similar satisfactory survey done.

 

[langstonelayabout]

Does the price of a survey reflect the quality of the survey? Sadly not.
I had a very good survey of a 25’ previous boat done by a surveyor in Brighton. Everything item needing to be surveyed was included, assessed and there was a scale of urgency showing how important it was (from NOW to: maybe later) to be fixed. No mistakes in the report. 5 years ago that survey cost me GBP 275. It also included good advice and honesty by telephone. I’ll go back to him. (and shame I sold the boat…)
My last boat I bought without a survey (Don’t!). Before launch and after major work and renewal I had a supposedly respected Solent based surveyor do an insurance survey on her. There seemed to be little content in his survey except for an issue with a cross-bracing that he described with doom and gloom. All the usual stuff was there (needs a gas certification, needs a engineer to check the engine, needs a installed fire extinguisher in the engine box) but little of his own content except the cross bracing and a need to drill the propshaft to establish a physical link between shaft clamp and engine. The engine, gearbox, clamp, shaft and prop were of course, newly and professionally installed. The report contained a number of mistakes.
For a 27’ boat his previously-agreed fee of about GBP 400 was middle ground for the length of yacht. He then invited himself back to check under the floor boards at the cross brace. And then sent me an invoice for an additional GBP 100 plus mileage.
When I sold that boat, the prospective buyer engaged another respected local surveyor and paid him over GBP600 to take a look. I’d never have recognised that it was the same boat from the previous survey, including identifying ‘evidence of stern gland leakage’ (yes, from the previous one, not the one now installed…) and numerous findings showing the boat was a dire threat to life as we know it. I lost the buyer.
The report contained a notable number of mistakes. Nowhere did the survey mention the cross beam or the need to drill a hole in the brand new propshaft. The next buyer came along, bought the previous survey from the surveyor (for 75% of the original price), discussed the findings with me and then the surveyor. And then made me an offer.
And this proves:
A pre-purchase survey is all about both a survey and identifying faults to get the price down.
An insurance survey on a reasonable boat will struggle to identify nit-picky things and may cost you in your insurance co insisting on you adopting recommendations to bring your boat up to the latest ‘industry best practice’.
You can get a good survey done by a professional for a reasonable price. You can also get one done that is poor and costs the going rate. You can pay a fortune for one that checks almost everything, but you probably won’t want the boat after reading it.
And EVERY GRP boat will, one day, develop high moisture content and may show osmosis like bubbles. Don’t be put off by the statement. If the boat you are looking at has been Gelshielded or coated with VC Tar, so much the better.

 

[lpdsn]

Nope, the price doesn't necessarily represent the value. There's no real regulation and there are I think four separate bodies, so standards can vary a lot.

Cheap doesn't necessarily mean a bad surveyor. It could just be a younger guy who is well trained and qualified (quite possibly degree level) who has yet to establish a reputation. Yachtsmen are a very conservative bunch so many will only use the same surveyor their grandfather used so it's hard for someone new to get established.

Chat to the surveyors of interest. Ask about the training and background and what they did to get qualified. e.g. are they a fibre glass specialist, wooden boat specialist or 'some big ship guy whose main experience of fibre glass is in his bath'. Ask how many hours they think the survey will take (which will show you how much effort they'll put in).

After that it is pot luck. The survey is a two-edged sword. You can use faults to get the price reduced, but then your insurance company will ask for the survey and will use it to make you fix things.

 

[GregOddity]

Does the price of a survey reflect the quality of the survey? Sadly not.
I had a very good survey of a 25’ previous boat done by a surveyor in Brighton. Everything item needing to be surveyed was included, assessed and there was a scale of urgency showing how important it was (from NOW to: maybe later) to be fixed. No mistakes in the report. 5 years ago that survey cost me GBP 275. It also included good advice and honesty by telephone. I’ll go back to him. (and shame I sold the boat…)
My last boat I bought without a survey (Don’t!). Before launch and after major work and renewal I had a supposedly respected Solent based surveyor do an insurance survey on her. There seemed to be little content in his survey except for an issue with a cross-bracing that he described with doom and gloom. All the usual stuff was there (needs a gas certification, needs a engineer to check the engine, needs a installed fire extinguisher in the engine box) but little of his own content except the cross bracing and a need to drill the propshaft to establish a physical link between shaft clamp and engine. The engine, gearbox, clamp, shaft and prop were of course, newly and professionally installed. The report contained a number of mistakes.
For a 27’ boat his previously-agreed fee of about GBP 400 was middle ground for the length of yacht. He then invited himself back to check under the floor boards at the cross brace. And then sent me an invoice for an additional GBP 100 plus mileage.
When I sold that boat, the prospective buyer engaged another respected local surveyor and paid him over GBP600 to take a look. I’d never have recognised that it was the same boat from the previous survey, including identifying ‘evidence of stern gland leakage’ (yes, from the previous one, not the one now installed…) and numerous findings showing the boat was a dire threat to life as we know it. I lost the buyer.
The report contained a notable number of mistakes. Nowhere did the survey mention the cross beam or the need to drill a hole in the brand new propshaft. The next buyer came along, bought the previous survey from the surveyor (for 75% of the original price), discussed the findings with me and then the surveyor. And then made me an offer.
And this proves:
A pre-purchase survey is all about both a survey and identifying faults to get the price down.
An insurance survey on a reasonable boat will struggle to identify nit-picky things and may cost you in your insurance co insisting on you adopting recommendations to bring your boat up to the latest ‘industry best practice’.
You can get a good survey done by a professional for a reasonable price. You can also get one done that is poor and costs the going rate. You can pay a fortune for one that checks almost everything, but you probably won’t want the boat after reading it.
And EVERY GRP boat will, one day, develop high moisture content and may show osmosis like bubbles. Don’t be put off by the statement. If the boat you are looking at has been Gelshielded or coated with VC Tar, so much the better.

Now THAT, is a proper description of what surveys actually are. Nicely written.

 

[Pasarell]

Sadly surveying is a completely unregulated business. You, I, or anyone else, can call ourselves surveyors and have a few business cards printed to "prove" it. There are several surveyor organisations in the UK that you can be accredited by simply by paying a fee. The only one, as far as I know, that demands proper training and standards is YDSA and their membership is limited to 150 iirc.
Whatever organisation they belong to, most yacht surveyors operate independently, setting their own prices and designing their own inspection and reports. It's important to agree with the surveyor what you expect and what he is prepared to do beforehand so there are no nasty surprises.
In my opinion 5% of the value is about right. 15% is way over the top unless you are asking for something unusual. I agree with seeking others opinions of surveyors in the area before committing to anyone.
Good luck with your purchase

 

[Quandary]

If you are anywhere near the East Coast I can recommend a surveyor who will do a comprehensive survey, provide an immediate verbal report of significant issues, arrange a specialist engine oil analysis if needed, then promptly provide a detailed and well illustrated report highlighting issues you actually may need to worry about. The photos in the report will be of areas you may never get to see, all for a reasonable fee.
The fact that he also contributes valued advice to this forum is another plus.

Dominic Buckley, East Anglia Yacht Surveys Ltd. tel 01603 717823

 

[sailaboutvic]

I think it all depend on how much you know about boats most surveyor will suggest that you get an engineer to check the engine and gear box , they will also suggest a rigger to fully check the rigging , I have never seen a surveyor climb a mast yet .
So what are you really paying for , hull moisture, keel, rudder, steering, conditioned on sails, safety equipment, general wear and tear.
Over the year I ask many how they got on with their surveyors, all have said that the surveyors only removed parts of the floor and side that would come away without unscrewing them , so in reality where keel bolts where under tables or places where it would had taken some time to get to , there where never check,
Rudders where check just by seeing if there epwas any play plus running his eyes around to check for damage so was the keel,
None told me that the sails where checked most where in storage at the time and the surveyor never ask to see them .
So what did they really do you have to ask,
Check the fire extinguisher by date, check the life raft but date, check for damage and the condition of the hull mostly from the out side and did a moisture test. All for the sum between 500 and 650 € .
Two of them boat I know for a fact had damage to the hull , two different surveyors and both never found e repair.
My the last boat I brought I asked to have the hull ,rudder , keel and a moisture read only , lucky for me I was there
He only lifted floors to show the front of the keel bolts, I insisted he unscrew the rest the owner had no objection to this , in the end I had to remove all the floors my self, the rudder other then checking for play that was all he was going to do , again I had to insisted he check the cables and quadrant, so all he was really was going to do for 350 € was a hull reading .

If your paying 600/700 pounds for a survey, I would make sure the surveyors know what you want done, and most important be there for the survey.

 

[lpdsn]

... and most important be there for the survey.

+1

 

[Topcat47]

The short answer id NO! My last but one survey stated unequivocally that my boat had severe Osmosis based on Moisture readings. It transpired that the moisture reading were ENTIRELY due to water residing in voids in the hull. I was an expensive survey and resulted in an extremely expensive and largely unnecessary refit. I recommend Omega because the guy knows older boats and is a pragmatic professional. The B$st$rd who screwed me up closed his business when I tried to claim against his Professional Liability insurance.

 

[Dutch01527]

Maybe I am a bit of a gambler but 5% of the purchase price seems like a lot to me. For a old production model GRP boat what are they going to find that you could not find yourself? The main areas of potential risk/cost are engine/gearbox and standing rigging which are not covered by the survey. Other areas of major spend are electronics and sails which can be assessed by an amateur. Keel damage and bolts carry some risk but can also be assessed.

When I bought my current boat last year I did not have a survey and I am glad that I did not. The money saved has been spent on replacing the gear box and auto helm and adding a windlass - all second hand.

It would be different for a home build, wooden/steel/fero boat or if the purchase cost was significant (£20-30k plus maybe).

 

[elton]

No it doesn't. But if you've owned a boat before, you'd probably know what he should be looking at. Also, it's possible he's surveyed the same boat previously, for someone else. There's not much you can do about that, other than ask him directly. Or ask around, and if you find someone, offer to pay a decent price for a copy of the survey.

 

[ghostlymoron]

Can't seem to send pm
My survey was by Nick Vass of Omega Yacht Services

 

[mlt2819]

Dear all,

Thank you for all of your replies, which are immensely helpful! I should've mentioned, but the boat I'm looking to have surveyed is aluminium :ambivalence:, so the higher quotes I've received might be coming from those who have more of a specialty with the material (or at least claim to). Even if that's the case, it still seems like there are some that are unjustifiably expensive.

Thanks again.

 

[penberth3]

Dear all,

Thank you for all of your replies... it still seems like there are some that are unjustifiably expensive.

Thanks again.

Not unknown that people who really don't want a particular job bung in a silly price, but if you'll pay it they'll turn out.

 

[langstonelayabout]

Not unknown that people who really don't want a particular job bung in a silly price, but if you'll pay it they'll turn out.

Ah, supply and demand. Market forces. The very source of the filthy lucre we need for our hobby.

But this technique works for many. Just ask the decorator, plumber, roofer, kitchen fitters we all complain aren't that available when we need them...

 

[Rikds]

IIMS surveyors are well worth a look. Very professional organisation and some top surveyors.
I am surprised to see quotes as a percentage of the vessel worth. Surveyors I know quote on boat length.

"The next buyer came along, bought the previous survey from the surveyor...."

That sounds highly dubious to me. The survey is usually owned by the commissioner and cannot be given or sold to a third party without specific permission of the person who originally purchased the survey. I know that people get hold of other peoples surveys however if one was used as stated there might be legal ramifications.