does teak give more structural support than replacement alternatives??

TactilePaul

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Could someone answer this question please , I'm concerned that our deck won't be as strong, I wonder did the boats without teak have thicker GRP to compensate?
boat in question; Grans Soliel 343 , late 80s..
Thanks.
 
great, thanks, It did 'give' significantly more under foot when removed, hopefully it will be stronger with composite..
Do you know if your model of boat was ever sold without teak decks? If a none teak deck was never an option then its possible the deck construction relied on the teak for some stiffness. I do however, think this is unlikely
 
great, thanks, It did 'give' significantly more under foot when removed, hopefully it will be stronger with composite..

I would 'hold fire' on adding a composite deck on top now if the fibreglass deck 'gives' significantly now - this suggests that the core (most probably balsa) is rotten - and this is very likely when you consider that the boat is 30+ years old now.

If you cannot borrow a moisture meter, it might be worthwhile acquiring one - they are very useful things to have.
The 'professional' ones like the Tramex Skipper are very expensive -
Tramex SMP Skipper Plus Moisture Meter for Boats, Interference-Free Humidity Measurements in GRP Boat (Fibreglass Plastics) and Wood Boats: Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools

However there are many different brands for measuring moisture in walls.

Here is a typical example.
Klein Tools Pinless Meter for Non-Destructive Moisture Drywall, Wood, and Masonry Detects up to 3/4-Inch Below Surface ET140: Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools

There are many other types also available on Amazon.

You are not concerned about absolute readings - rather, you are only interested in relative readings.
For example, measure the moisture content on an area of fibreglass that is known to be 'dry' (eg single skin hull topsides?) and then use this reading as a reference datum.
I cannot offer any guarantees as to a dry wall moisture meter working on a fibreglass deck, but I think it should - has anybody on here had any experience of using them on fibreglass?

If you do get one, make sure that it has pads, rather than pins (which have to pierce the material).
 
I would 'hold fire' on adding a composite deck on top now if the fibreglass deck 'gives' significantly now - this suggests that the core (most probably balsa) is rotten - and this is very likely when you consider that the boat is 30+ years old now.

If you cannot borrow a moisture meter, it might be worthwhile acquiring one - they are very useful things to have.
The 'professional' ones like the Tramex Skipper are very expensive -
Tramex SMP Skipper Plus Moisture Meter for Boats, Interference-Free Humidity Measurements in GRP Boat (Fibreglass Plastics) and Wood Boats: Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools

However there are many different brands for measuring moisture in walls.

Here is a typical example.
Klein Tools Pinless Meter for Non-Destructive Moisture Drywall, Wood, and Masonry Detects up to 3/4-Inch Below Surface ET140: Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools

There are many other types also available on Amazon.

You are not concerned about absolute readings - rather, you are only interested in relative readings.
For example, measure the moisture content on an area of fibreglass that is known to be 'dry' (eg single skin hull topsides?) and then use this reading as a reference datum.
I cannot offer any guarantees as to a dry wall moisture meter working on a fibreglass deck, but I think it should - has anybody on here had any experience of using them on fibreglass?

If you do get one, make sure that it has pads, rather than pins (which have to pierce the material).

i agree entirely.
Unfortunately many teak decks were fitted to sandwich construction decks with screws through the outer laminate that allow water ingress if not properly sealed. This causes the foam or balsa core to disintegrate and delaminate causing the deck to flex. You wont solve this by fitting another teak deck. You need to determine the moisture content and condition of the core and if as bad as I suspect it may be take professional advice on correcting the problem before replacing any decorative overlay.
i
 
I cannot offer any guarantees as to a dry wall moisture meter working on a fibreglass deck, but I think it should - has anybody on here had any experience of using them on fibreglass?
I use a Protimeter ’sonic’ style damp meter on my balsa cored deck very successfully to find damp areas. As you say, it is relative readings that are important
 
thanks, great replies, and exactly the kind of worst case scenario I have been worrying about! I will look into it.. Its being proffesionally dealt with, but just want to stay ahead of anythig that might be overlooked..
 
Re how it is being 'professionally dealt with' - be careful.

You might have to allocate the budget for the composite deck covering to fixing the core of the deck itself.

Hopefully the deck is only flexing (and the core probably rotten) in localised areas where water has got in through deck fittings - however there is always the possibility of water getting in through the literally hundreds of screw holes used for attaching the teak deck.
If there are high moisture readings everywhere (surely your professionals must have a moisture meter?) then you might be looking at taking the outer skin of the deck up and replacing the core - but this is a BIG job, especially so when done at professional labour rates.

Please do keep us updated re progress.
It might be worthwhile taking up a small (say 12" square) sample area of deck where the moisture levels are highest (or where the deck feels the most spongy) as a trial run to see what the core look like underneath.
Be aware that you might well find a black rotting festering mess underneath.
 
Re how it is being 'professionally dealt with' - be careful.

You might have to allocate the budget for the composite deck covering to fixing the core of the deck itself.

Hopefully the deck is only flexing (and the core probably rotten) in localised areas where water has got in through deck fittings - however there is always the possibility of water getting in through the literally hundreds of screw holes used for attaching the teak deck.
If there are high moisture readings everywhere (surely your professionals must have a moisture meter?) then you might be looking at taking the outer skin of the deck up and replacing the core - but this is a BIG job, especially so when done at professional labour rates.

Please do keep us updated re progress.
It might be worthwhile taking up a small (say 12" square) sample area of deck where the moisture levels are highest (or where the deck feels the most spongy) as a trial run to see what the core look like underneath.
Be aware that you might well find a black rotting festering mess underneath.
Again agreed. If the "Professional" you are using is a "teak deck fitter" he is not going to give a fart if you have delamination as long as it looks pretty and he gets paid. You need to get a proper moisture survey of the deck first. Frankly if its very bad and flexing underfoot even that may only give you a general idea of the problem areas. I have in my time repaired quite a few dodgy decks. If it has an obvious area of deflection its almost certain there is a problem. Frankly I would remove headlining in that area and start by removing a small area of inner skin if you can. (like about 2" square) to examine the core. Usually the best plan is to test areas like that to determine the extent and nature of the problem. The repair necessary will depend on what you find. Sometimes its just a localised problem but while not wishing to frighten you I have seen at least 4 boats where the only solution was to remove most of the inner skin, remove the crap, thoroughly clean the bottom of the outer skin and replace the foam on crestomer paste or some other suitable paste adhesive before relaminating the inner skin. Of course if you are planning to replace teak deck in the areas affected you could reverse the process and work from above leaving the inner skin intact. The advantages here would be that working downhand is much easier, you will get rid of all the holes in the outer skin and the "new" outer skin will be covered by teak so you won't see it. Don't worry about gel coat. you only need that for cosmetic reasons. For my money I would then replace with imitation plastic teak and glue the stuff down rather than screw it. Either way its either an extensive DIY project or a job for a good yard professional with experience in this kind of repair. Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings but amateur bodge ups rarely last long and it wont be solved by half measures......
 
Looked at photos of 2 boats, one with and one without teak decks. Teak is glued on - no fastenings, and not too many fittings going through the teak so not many paths for water to get into the core. However spongy areas definitely need investigating before sticking another covering on top. Related question - is it worth it? New deck will be £10k to lay - on a boat worth maybe £35k?
 
I should have gone and looked for some 343's for sale first, before assuming that those with teak decks had fastenings.

Here is one for sale with no teak on the deck, other than in the cockpit area -
1986 Grand Soleil 343 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -
@goldcrest , you could consider this option if you do find lots of areas of rotten core (ie just re-finishing the deck and then painting with non skid paint).

Can you maybe post a photo or two showing the deck in it's present condition with the teak removed?

As Tranona notes, a new deck will be expensive - even a composite Flexiteek or similar version.

Here is a 343 for sale with teak decks - they were photographed wet (after a rain shower?) and do not look their best, but even so, the teak looks rather tired. I think that the plain fibreglass deck looks much nicer really.
1988 Pardo Grand Soleil 343 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale
 
thanks for your replies/concerns..
I was under the impression that the teak was glued and not screwed, but there were lots of screws apparently.
Its good to know that a rotten core can be dealt with from the underside in future if required, but obviously it would be better from above!!
here some pics..
 
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he is happy that the deck feels ok and that it certainly wont be getting wetter when hes finished,

Of course he is going to say this - he wants the job.
And if the deck core deteriorates (more) afterwards, he can reasonably claim that it was not his fault.

It is not good enough that the deck 'feels ok' - if it has got lots of rotten areas underneath, then covering it with teak is like gold plating the proverbial turd.
At the very least, get hold of a moisture meter and test ALL of the deck.
 
Of course he is going to say this - he wants the job.
And if the deck core deteriorates (more) afterwards, he can reasonably claim that it was not his fault.

It is not good enough that the deck 'feels ok' - if it has got lots of rotten areas underneath, then covering it with teak is like gold plating the proverbial turd.
At the very least, get hold of a moisture meter and test ALL of the deck.
I couldn't agree more. I knew a guy that had a Jeaneau that had a soft deck once the yard removed the old teak deck. The yard drilled some cores and the whole deck was saturated although the deck was only soft in a few spots. They ended up removing the whole outerskin of the deck and replacing the core. It was a big job. You wouldnt want to put a new deck on top of a soaked core. Its needs proper investigation first
 
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I couldn't agree more. I knew a guy that had a Jeaneau that had a soft deck once the yard removed the old teak deck. The yard drilled some cores and the whole deck was saturated although the deck was only soft in a few spots. They ended up removing the whole outerskin of the deck and replacing the core. It was a big job. You wouldnt want to put a new deck on top of a soaked core. Its needs proper investigation first

And if you do find that it is all saturated, if I was in your shoes and my budget is already stretched, then I would forget about the artificial teak and concentrate on just fixing the deck properly - and if you have to take up (most of) the outer skin, so be it, at least you will be doing a proper repair job.

Unless only small isolated areas are saturated (and these areas are easily accessible from underneath), don't even think about trying to fix it from underneath.
Especially as you have already ripped up the teak, so a lot of fairing work will still be required on the deck surface before you either paint it or clad it in artificial teak.
 
Yes teak is an "add on" to a standard deck on a GRP boat.

Not necessarily true.
Previous boat was of mid 80's vintage with teak decks.
In 2010 the time had come to replace the teak.
We found that underneath the teak there was a layer of marine ply and only then 5 mm of GRP.
When we had removed the teak & ply you noticed a distinct 'spring in your step' when you walked on deck.
A surveyor and a yacht architect were consulted and both were of the opinion that the structural integrity of the boat would be affected if the removed teak & ply were not replaced by an alternative. Just adding anti-slip (like Threadmaster) was not an option.

Since OP's boat is also an 80's boat, I would investigate further.
 
Not necessarily true.
Previous boat was of mid 80's vintage with teak decks.
In 2010 the time had come to replace the teak.
We found that underneath the teak there was a layer of marine ply and only then 5 mm of GRP.
When we had removed the teak & ply you noticed a distinct 'spring in your step' when you walked on deck.
A surveyor and a yacht architect were consulted and both were of the opinion that the structural integrity of the boat would be affected if the removed teak & ply were not replaced by an alternative. Just adding anti-slip (like Threadmaster) was not an option.

Since OP's boat is also an 80's boat, I would investigate further.
That may have been true of your old boat, but this is a GRP boat which had options of plain or teak laid deck - look at the photos. The teak deck is thin planks glued on. No structural value at all. Nothing like the construction you describe. The concern here is that water has got into the sandwich deck which may be causing the springiness.

The best advice as has already been given is to do moisture tests on the deck and even core sample because laying many thousands of pounds on new deck over a compromised substrate is not a good idea. In fact the proposed covering is flexible plastic which would still show up the flex in the deck.
 
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