Does Greece now REALLY need OUR tax money?

[Tony Cross]

Well, the original post was intended to be ironic, Tony. Nobody, well not me anyway is saying that Greece doesn't have the right to impose any tax it likes. We are just commenting upon the fairness and wisdom of imposing this particular tax on their revenue producing friends.

Oh. I've never been good with irony, SWMBO always does ours.

...
Tony
I disagree , I wouldn't say this tax is done and dusted yet , let see what the out come by the end of this year .

I hope you're right!

 

[Retired in Crete]

People who live on boats do pay their share. Every time they buy food in a shop or have a cold beer or meal out they pay tax. Every time they buy a new part for the boat or employ someone to do some work on it they pay tax. Every time they take out a marina contract or lift out they pay tax. In fact I imagine many pay more tax than the average Greek as maintaining, repairing and mooring a boat is not a cheap past time.

The new boat tax will not raise any more money from transient yachties to help pay for the services as many will leave, many will never arrive, many will avoid paying the tax for as long as possible and those who do pay will just spend less on cold beers to make up the difference in their budget.

We for one need a new mainsail which we had planned to order from a sail maker in Athens but now we have cancelled that idea as we need to reserve the money we would have spent just in case someone comes knocking on the hull waving a tax demand. Many others will be doing the same.

So please don't try to suggest that people that live on boats don't pay their share.

I can only suggest that you go to the tax authorities in your country with your reasoning that you shouldn't pay any tax because you already pay it when you shop.

I suspect that I know what their response would be!

John

 

[sailaboutvic]

Fine - agreed, no tax if you live on a boat PROVIDED you do not take advantage of any of the facilities taxation provides i.e street lighting, rubbish collection, pavements, parks, law enforcement agencies or use any other public facilities.

Somebody has to pay for these things, why should you not pay your share?

John

I like to answer that question John , because we are tourist just visiting Greece , if Greece want to tax the ones who live there full time that fine but the rest of us don't , some are there for weeks other for some months and other leave the boats over winter in marina or boat yards and return back to what country they. Came from , only a small amount are in Greece 365 days a year ,
Our boats our not houses they are a mean of transport .
Why don't Greece have a yearly tax for car that are touring Greece .

 

[Retired in Crete]

I like to answere that question John , because we are tourist just visiting Greece , if Greece want to tax the ones who live there full time that fine but the rest of us don't ,
.

Tourists pay taxes before they even get here! Fly to Greece (or other destinations) and an airport tax is included in your fare. Who do you think gets these taxes if not the government? Ditto if you arrive by ferry, taxes are included in your fare although they are not itemised.

You are obviously not aware that the Greek government doubled the airport taxes a couple of years ago. (Crazy I know but such is life!)

John

 

[Retired in Crete]

The two things we choose not to own are a house and a car yet our taxes pays for services we will never use in the UK such as refuse collection, lighting, pavements, roads etc - do we complain? ?

Sounds like you are complaining to me!

So you are willing to pay for services you don’t use in the UK but object to paying for those in Greece which you do use! Your logic escapes me.

This is now becoming ridiculous, as Tony Cross has already stated, you have a choice to either stay or leave. Your decision.

John

 

[sailaboutvic]

Tourists pay taxes before they even get here! Fly to Greece (or other destinations) and an airport tax is included in your fare. Who do you think gets these taxes if not the government? Ditto if you arrive by ferry, taxes are included in your fare although they are not itemised.

You are obviously not aware that the Greek government doubled the airport taxes a couple of years ago. (Crazy I know but such is life!)

John

Yes your right , but the tax isn't a yearly 400 Euro or no one would go ,
That's the point most of us are making .

 

[Steve C Cronin]

People who live on boats do pay their share. Every time they buy food in a shop or have a cold beer or meal out they pay tax. Every time they buy a new part for the boat or employ someone to do some work on it they pay tax. Every time they take out a marina contract or lift out they pay tax. In fact I imagine many pay more tax than the average Greek as maintaining, repairing and mooring a boat is not a cheap past time.

The new boat tax will not raise any more money from transient yachties to help pay for the services as many will leave, many will never arrive, many will avoid paying the tax for as long as possible and those who do pay will just spend less on cold beers to make up the difference in their budget.

We for one need a new mainsail which we had planned to order from a sail maker in Athens but now we have cancelled that idea as we need to reserve the money we would have spent just in case someone comes knocking on the hull waving a tax demand. Many others will be doing the same.

So please don't try to suggest that people that live on boats don't pay their share.

They don't just pay tax; they contribute to the economy which all the greco-philes on here seem to wish to turn the blind eye to.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Yes your right , but the tax isn't a yearly 400 Euro or no one would go ,
That's the point most of us are making .

€400 a year! What do you have? A camper-boat?

 

[Retired in Crete]

In my personal opinion (if personal opinions are allowed on this forum!) the tax is unworkable and will only damage the Greek economy. In fact it is all ready damaging the economy as people are already making plans to leave or not to arrive and not a cent has even been collected yet.

I agree with you 100%!!

However, it is a tax legally instigated by a democratically elected government. If the Greek government wish to damage the economy it is their prerogative. It will not be the first time.

In the meantime we all have two choices:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coPB3GLpx98

John

 

[duncan99210]

See other posts about the expected tax yield. The tax makes sense because it is a tax on all vessels in Greek waters. The proportion of vessels aiming to leave or not bother coming the Greece is such that it will not markedly affect the overall take, which is mainly aimed at boats permanently in Greek waters. It has been reasonably well thought out: flat rate, affordable for smaller boats, variable rates for larger ones, discounts for prompt payment and exemptions for vessels on passage, along with various breaks for commercial operators.
Sure no tax is ever popular but this one is a reasonable attempt to tax assets in Greece that have been exempt up until now.
Remember that like most taxes this one will go straight into the overall tax pot. It is not intended to improve facilities for boats or anything else, just to improve the Greek tax revenue. Just about all tax is treated in the same manner, by the way. Road tax doesn't go into a pot marked road repairs and building : it goes into the general tax take. As has been said before, if you don't like the tax leave Greece before it arrives, otherwise please stop complaining.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Exactly. If they'd said they are increasing the tax on marina fees and town quay fees by 10% and all lift outs will cost an extra 10% then no one would be jumping up and down. We'd accept it and either pay more or stay in marinas less and go on town quays less and we might shop around a bit more for a cheaper lift out. But a blanket tax on everyone who happens to own a boat in Greece and a ridiculously expensive tax at that is why there is so much being posted on this forum by upset boat owners.

In my personal opinion (if personal opinions are allowed on this forum!) the tax is unworkable and will only damage the Greek economy. In fact it is all ready damaging the economy as people are already making plans to leave or not to arrive and not a cent has even been collected yet.

I think that if we knew that it was a government imposition the reaction would be the same but I understand your point.
Welcome to the ranks of the "Free Thinkers"!

 

[Steve C Cronin]

See other posts about the expected tax yield. The tax makes sense because it is a tax on all vessels in Greek waters. The proportion of vessels aiming to leave or not bother coming the Greece is such that it will not markedly affect the overall take, which is mainly aimed at boats permanently in Greek waters. It has been reasonably well thought out: flat rate, affordable for smaller boats, variable rates for larger ones, discounts for prompt payment and exemptions for vessels on passage, along with various breaks for commercial operators.
Sure no tax is ever popular but this one is a reasonable attempt to tax assets in Greece that have been exempt up until now.
Remember that like most taxes this one will go straight into the overall tax pot. It is not intended to improve facilities for boats or anything else, just to improve the Greek tax revenue. Just about all tax is treated in the same manner, by the way. Road tax doesn't go into a pot marked road repairs and building : it goes into the general tax take. As has been said before, if you don't like the tax leave Greece before it arrives, otherwise please stop complaining.

So, it IS an "ASSET" tax then?

Three of the leaders of the Greco-phile campaign here are adamant that it is a "Circulation Tax".

 

[sailaboutvic]

Before I go - a short story.

Our hero, let's call him John Smith is visiting another country, let's call it country A, when suddenly the government of country A introduce a stupid and expensive new tax on farting. Our hero isn't happy about this as it's not like he can live without farting even if the tax on small farts is slightly cheaper than the tax on big farts. So he goes online to find out what other people are thinking about this new farting tax. Maybe if everyone gets together something can be done to stop the zombies in government from introducing it. He stumbles across a web site for a magazine dedicate to farting and the needs of farters - let's call it 'Farting Monthly'. He's stunned to find that some farters seem to be happy to pay for every time they fart and those same happy farty tax payers just keep saying 'stop complaining, if you don't like it then just take your farty bottom elsewhere' Our hero, John sits back and farts for free while he still can and has a think about it. after a few good trumpets he decides that he has principles and so will take his bottom to where it's more welcome. So he pops across to a neighbouring country, let's call it country B. a country where farting is still considered to be something that is a free right. After a year he is shocked to find out that the new country he is visiting also intends to introduce a farting tax. They've seen that country A introduced one and got away with it with hardly any farters complaining. Country B now seem to have an extremely large number of farters - who all seem to have arrived in the last year (strangely enough) and so think they could make a killing on farts, and whose to stop them as country A set a precedence with their new farting tax. Before long thanks to all the farters who just rolled over and paid there isn't a country left in the world where you can fart for free.
The End

WELL SAID . Exactly what I been saying , the only different is my case it sailing and not farting their trying to tax ,
27 yeas ago when i started sailing , sailing was free you could almost go any where without someone trying to lever your wallet out of your pocket , now it almost the opposite .
sailing was once called a rich man sport , because to price of buying a boat , the way it going it will once again be a rich man sport but now it not the cost of the boat but the cost of using it .
And on that note I too am leaving this thread .

 

[Tony Cross]

Before I go - a short story.

Our hero, let's call him John Smith is visiting another country, let's call it country A, when suddenly the government of country A introduce a stupid and expensive new tax on farting. Our hero isn't happy about this as it's not like he can live without farting even if the tax on small farts is slightly cheaper than the tax on big farts. So he goes online to find out what other people are thinking about this new farting tax. Maybe if everyone gets together something can be done to stop the zombies in government from introducing it. He stumbles across a web site for a magazine dedicate to farting and the needs of farters - let's call it 'Farting Monthly'. He's stunned to find that some farters seem to be happy to pay for every time they fart and those same happy farty tax payers just keep saying 'stop complaining, if you don't like it then just take your farty bottom elsewhere' Our hero, John sits back and farts for free while he still can and has a think about it. after a few good trumpets he decides that he has principles and so will take his bottom to where it's more welcome. So he pops across to a neighbouring country, let's call it country B. a country where farting is still considered to be something that is a free right. After a year he is shocked to find out that the new country he is visiting also intends to introduce a farting tax. They've seen that country A introduced one and got away with it with hardly any farters complaining. Country B now seem to have an extremely large number of farters - who all seem to have arrived in the last year (strangely enough) and so think they could make a killing on farts, and whose to stop them as country A set a precedence with their new farting tax. Before long thanks to all the farters who just rolled over and paid there isn't a country left in the world where you can fart for free.
The End

Look, I don't like this new tax either, it will hit us very hard (we're 13.7m) and I agree that it's likely to harm some parts of the Greek yachting tourism industry because some people will leave. But you're analogy above misses one very important fact; even if all the visiting yachts in Greece left there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that the tax would be abandoned. Why? Because the massively overwhelming majority of boats in Greek waters are Greek owned, and they can't easily leave. The false premise that you and others seem to be operating on is that we (the visiting yachts) are numerically sufficient to have some power, and we're not. Sure, our leaving would cause very real hardship in some yachting tourist sensitive areas, but we all know that most of the yachting tourism areas make most of their money from charterers, not from owners or liveaboards, and that business will be unaffected by this tax. The charterers will still come. The sky will not fall in.

Unpleasant though this tax will be, there are only two choices; pay or leave. Visiting yachtsmen simply do not have the power to change it, we're just not that important or that numerous compared to the Greek owned boats. Sad but true.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Look, I don't like this new tax either, it will hit us very hard (we're 13.7m) and I agree that it's likely to harm some parts of the Greek yachting tourism industry because some people will leave. But you're analogy above misses one very important fact; even if all the visiting yachts in Greece left there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that the tax would be abandoned. Why? Because the massively overwhelming majority of boats in Greek waters are Greek owned, and they can't easily leave. The false premise that you and others seem to be operating on is that we (the visiting yachts) are numerically sufficient to have some power, and we're not. Sure, our leaving would cause very real hardship in some yachting tourist sensitive areas, but we all know that most of the yachting tourism areas make most of their money from charterers, not from owners or liveaboards, and that business will be unaffected by this tax. The charterers will still come. The sky will not fall in.

Unpleasant though this tax will be, there are only two choices; pay or leave. Visiting yachtsmen simply do not have the power to change it, we're just not that important or that numerous compared to the Greek owned boats. Sad but true.

Sorry I know I said the last posting was going to be my last BUT I have to answer Tony
You quite right the tax may not just go away just because visiting yachtmens leave or don't go to greece , but it could make a big different to getting the tax altered in a big way for visiting yachtmens ,
Because at the end of the day , that's what we are , visiting yachtsmen not resident of Greece .

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Look, I don't like this new tax either, it will hit us very hard (we're 13.7m) and I agree that it's likely to harm some parts of the Greek yachting tourism industry because some people will leave. But you're analogy above misses one very important fact; even if all the visiting yachts in Greece left there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that the tax would be abandoned. Why? Because the massively overwhelming majority of boats in Greek waters are Greek owned, and they can't easily leave. The false premise that you and others seem to be operating on is that we (the visiting yachts) are numerically sufficient to have some power, and we're not. Sure, our leaving would cause very real hardship in some yachting tourist sensitive areas, but we all know that most of the yachting tourism areas make most of their money from charterers, not from owners or liveaboards, and that business will be unaffected by this tax. The charterers will still come. The sky will not fall in.

Unpleasant though this tax will be, there are only two choices; pay or leave. Visiting yachtsmen simply do not have the power to change it, we're just not that important or that numerous compared to the Greek owned boats. Sad but true.

If all the non Greek boats on our pontoon of 84 berths left, there would be only two remaining and they are both <11metres. The rest of the marina, apart from the charter berths and a few caiques is similarly occupied so I cannot agree your statistic.

I'm waiting to see what the massive influx of Italian boats in August makes of it. It will just be unmanageable and I wouln't be surprised if they just choose to ignore it and the Greeks just capitulate, throw their arms in the air and lock themselves in the PP office until the problem sails away. The Brits of course will sit in their Ivory Tower of smugness, self-satisfied that they have "Conformed to the Regulations" whilst the rest of europe laughs, yet again, at their "Faithful Old Labrador" stance.

 

[Tony Cross]

I went - but I'm back!

Hello Tony. First of all it's not an analogy it's just part of a book I'm working on. I'm not sure about the ending yet though.

How's Ag Nik this winter? The rumour on my grapevine is that there aren't that many actual liveaboards compared to normal this year. My source (say hello to Hilary and Ray from me when you see them) tells me that there is only a handful compared to the over crowding of last winter. My personal feeling is that it's because they doubled the price of the electricity half way through last winter. From what I recall they said it was because the tax on electricity had gone up so much they had to. There's a surprise - people moving on due to the effects of tax. So the liveaboards left and the place filled up with what I class as boat abandoners and part time holiday sailors looking for a cheap parking space for their boat. Once this new tax is being collected most of them will head off elsewhere to save on the increased cost of parking in Greece. The locals who were running a summer run-about on a shoestring budget will decide not bother this year and put their boat up on bricks under an olive tree in their back garden. Which brings us to the charter companies. How many big charter companies exactly are based in Ag Nik? None. They'll probably stay then. The ones elsewhere will have to take a few thousand more Euro's out of their hard earned profits to give to the government so they'll put their prices up. People who charter every year will notice and consider other holiday choices for this year - maybe.

It is true that there were not as many people staying aboard their yachts all winter this year, many went home for the Christmas holidays and the place is filling up with people again now they're coming back. When you were here last time you did the same thing as I recall? The marina here is as full as it ever is and just as full as in previous years. It will be necessary to book again for a berth this winter, there is no real change here.

I know that you don't manage to get away from Crete much but I think you'll find that when you next do that on most quays in popular charter areas there are as many if not more non charter boats than charter boats and that anchorages are packed with non charter boats. Funnily enough popular charter areas are popular with non charterers too. So the departure of a large percentage of half the boats sitting on every popular town quay and in every anchorage will have a huge effect.

Actually I manage to tear myself away from Crete . I'm told, by a source I trust, that the detailed survey that was done in 2012 on which this tax is based attempted to establish how many non-Greek boats there were here which is why they're not afraid of a mass exodus - which won't happen in any case.

Yes many of the boats in Greece are Greek owned and how many of them will be on the market once the owner gets an annual four figure tax bill is anyone's guess. My guess is quite a few. That should suppress the prices of second hand boats quite nicely and the tax intake from any sales too.

Greek boats are for sale for all sorts of reasons, mostly to do with most Greeks having seen a very serious cut in their incomes. I don't doubt that for some the boat tax will be the final straw.

Any government of a tourist based economy who introduces a tax designed to catch the tax avoiding nationals that also seriously affects one of their biggest industries needs their bumps feeling. Unfortunately most elected officials are not actually very qualified for the positions that they have been elected to perform and so sometimes they need the people their decisions affect to stand up and shout a little and maybe dare I say it - complain. If every time a poor decision was made by the elected few the masses just rolled over and opened their wallet then the world would be a terrible place rather than just a place that's alright now with the potential to become terrible if left in the wrong hands.

Greece is of course largely a tourist based economy, yachting tourism however makes up an infinitesimally small fraction of the overall tourism income. Some of what you say about the Greek government is probably true, but as John mentioned, they are the democratically elected government.

There are more choices in life than just stay and pay or leave.

Name one that you think will really make a difference.

Anyway must - go as got a book to finish.....

Best wishes on that, I hope it does well for you.

 

[Tony Cross]

If all the non Greek boats on our pontoon of 84 berths left, there would be only two remaining and they are both <11metres. The rest of the marina, apart from the charter berths and a few caiques is similarly occupied so I cannot agree your statistic.

Most of the Greek owned boats (I suspect) are around Athens?

I'm waiting to see what the massive influx of Italian boats in August makes of it. It will just be unmanageable and I wouln't be surprised if they just choose to ignore it and the Greeks just capitulate, throw their arms in the air and lock themselves in the PP office until the problem sails away. The Brits of course will sit in their Ivory Tower of smugness, self-satisfied that they have "Conformed to the Regulations" whilst the rest of europe laughs, yet again, at their "Faithful Old Labrador" stance.

It will be interesting to see how the August influx of Italians goes this year. I'll be up in the onion this summer so I'll probably see them (or lack of them) first hand.

I hope you don't see me as "a smug Brit in my Ivory Tower"? Perhaps you do. I'm simply dealing with what is, I see no point in fighting battles that can't be won, and we (visiting yachtsmen) can't defeat this tax. We might be able to get it modified or even use it to obtain concessions elsewhere, that's the line the CA has taken since day one of course....

 

[Jock89]

Jeez, Spelling & Grammar!

Firstly John , I do feel for the poor people in Greece but no more then (THAN) i(I) feel for people in African COUNTRIES
But you know what? There ARE also people who are in a bad way in the UK too, people who can't afford to pay there (THEIR) heating bills and are living life in the cold , people who had to cut down quite a lot just to get thought (THROUGH) from week to week, we also got (HAVE) people on the street and if it come(S) to that so have most country (COUNTRIES) in Europe , Greece is just the same as most other country's(COUNTRIES) there ARE the rich , the not so rich , the workers and the unemployed, beggars and the down and outs , if you really want to see poverty try some of the African country. (COUNTRIES) .
Just to prove my point what ever town that you may live in, (IN) Crete ! I am sure there (ARE) some people who just can't get thought (THROUGH) the week without pain and suffering , and then there (ARE) people like yourself (don't take it personalLY ) with your swimmer(SWIMMING) pool , yacht and fancy car , that'S life my friend , it was like that in the beginNING of time and until some nut dropS the bomb it will stay like that.

"Sorry, couldn't help myself, that was painful reading."!

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Most of the Greek owned boats (I suspect) are around Athens?



It will be interesting to see how the August influx of Italians goes this year. I'll be up in the onion this summer so I'll probably see them (or lack of them) first hand.

I hope you don't see me as "a smug Brit in my Ivory Tower"? Perhaps you do. I'm simply dealing with what is, I see no point in fighting battles that can't be won, and we (visiting yachtsmen) can't defeat this tax. We might be able to get it modified or even use it to obtain concessions elsewhere, that's the line the CA has taken since day one of course....

I'll correct you on that too. It wasn't until people with my views and a few others dared to challenge the staid and reluctant hierarchy at "Port Cosyhome-Limehouse" that anything was done. Just check the early posts of one of it's "Council" members on the first thread and you will see terms like "...nothing can be done so we won't try..." After being given a good boot up the backside they eventually got out of their torpor and into some action.