Does crossing Lyme Bay count as International Waters?

Greenheart

Greenheart

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WARNING: idiot question. I mean, worse than usual.

If you sail out of Weymouth in a dinghy, and avoid Portland Bill by quite a margin, taking account of the tide, and head west for Dartmouth...

...for the hopefully brief period when you're halfway across (more than 12 miles from either side, or from Lyme to the north), are you no longer in 'inshore waters'?
 
Whose definition of inshore waters, for what purpose?

A trip for budding Frank Dyes only, I reckon. Out of sight of land in a racing dinghy not something I'd fancy.

Pete
 
dancrane said:
WARNING: idiot question. I mean, worse than usual.

If you sail out of Weymouth in a dinghy, and avoid Portland Bill by quite a margin, taking account of the tide, and head west for Dartmouth...

...for the hopefully brief period when you're halfway across (more than 12 miles from either side, or from Lyme to the north), are you no longer in 'inshore waters'?
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It's not 12 miles from land its from the baseline.

Base lines can be drawn different ways and there are some complicated rules about it, which sometimes allow countries to draw the line across the mouth of bays so the inside of the bay is actual internal waters.
 
I hope you're right, Wadget. Can't be bothered crawling round the coast inshore. :rolleyes:

prv said:
Out of sight of land in a racing dinghy not something I'd fancy.
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But you know me, Pete, I'm barmy. Actually I regularly crossed from East Head to Seaview in the Topper...routinely out of sight of land for an hour or so...

...and the first time, I didn't carry a compass. :eek:

But I was wondering how one stands in insurance terms. Possibly not too firmly, since the boat wasn't especially meant for offshore work.

Told you it was a daft question.
 
dancrane said:
But I was wondering how one stands in insurance terms. Possibly not too firmly, since the boat wasn't especially meant for offshore work.
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Of course, the fundamental difference between boat insurance and car insurance is that the former is not mandatory, so it's up to you whether you want to keep it in effect at all times. If I was going to sail a dinghy across Lyme Bay I might judge that the odds of damaging anybody else or needing expensive salvage in the middle of the bay are basically nil. If the dinghy sank and I ended up being plucked from the sea by a lifeboat or helicopter, the replacement cost of a shagged out lime-green dinghy might be seen as minor compared to the fact I was still alive.

Best check that your insurance company won't deem the cover invalid for the bits at each end of the trip because of the bit in the middle, but I don't see any automatic reason that they should.

Pete
 
dancrane said:
But you know me, Pete, I'm barmy. Actually I regularly crossed from East Head to Seaview in the Topper
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Dunno about a topper, but I'd probably do that trip in a dinghy. Rather different to round the Portland Race and across Lyme Bay though.

Since you don't need a deep water harbour, why not coast-hop around the edge instead?

Pete
 
prv said:
Since you don't need a deep water harbour, why not coast-hop around the edge instead?
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I was thinking of weekend trips with pals who don't have time to kill. Even a "shagged-out dinghy" can cover forty miles between breakfast and supper, in a nice F4.

That lurid limey-green paint might be just the thing to catch the eye of the chaps in the Sea King, if need be...
 
Won't be a Sea King in that area I don't think.

Coast hopping would actually be much more fun. Inshore round the Bill at the correct time and close in along Chesil stopping at West Bay, Lyme Regis, Axmouth then into the Exe would be fun - did it in my Eventide many years ago.

BTW my Osprey spent part of its life before I had it single handed cruising round the Falklands (pre the spot of bother there) with a cut down main I think from a Heron. Then owner was an keen lad!
 
We were over 15 miles from and well out of sight of land on a trip to Falmouth from Plymouth in an open two man cat, we've also headed out to the Eddystone a few times. I don't think we expected any insurance to cover anything like that, but we carried epirb, vhf, charts, gpsx2 and were wearing drysuits.

My Atlantic crossings (in bigger boats) weren't insured either but that's a good incentive to be well sorted.
 
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wadget said:
It's not 12 miles from land its from the baseline.

Base lines can be drawn different ways and there are some complicated rules about it, which sometimes allow countries to draw the line across the mouth of bays so the inside of the bay is actual internal waters.
Click to expand...

I've helped define baselines, and I can assure you that they are ALWAYS drawn across the mouths of bays. Basically, if you think of a rubber band drawn tight around the coast, that will (usually) be the baseline. There are some rules to do with very slightly concave coasts (where you pick out the prominent headlands or offshore islands and draw through them), but anything definite enough to be called a bay is internal waters.
 
AntarcticPilot said:
I've helped define baselines, and I can assure you that they are ALWAYS drawn across the mouths of bays. Basically, if you think of a rubber band drawn tight around the coast, that will (usually) be the baseline. There are some rules to do with very slightly concave coasts (where you pick out the prominent headlands or offshore islands and draw through them), but anything definite enough to be called a bay is internal waters.
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Not quite true. A baseline would be drawn across the mouth of a bay if, when a a semi-circle placed across the mouth of the bay with the straight line from the two seaward points would go over the land. The baseline for the UK does not go across the mouth of Lyme Bay but around the edges. Internal waters are those on the landward side of the baseline, 12 miles from the baseline is the limit of territorial waters and outside 12nm is defined as international waters. Without a chart I am not sure if the mouth of Lyme bay is greater than 24nm and if the 'depth of Lyme bay is greater than 12nm - if it is then you will leave territorial waters when crossing it.
 
Hermit said:
The baseline for the UK does not go across the mouth of Lyme Bay but around the edges.
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On that basis, a straight course from the tip of Portland Bill to Dartmouth would appear to go outside territorial waters for about twenty miles...

...why am I more thrilled than alarmed? :rolleyes:
 
If you keep on going west/sw down there just beyond The Lizard my chart plotter pops up with "North Atlantic Ocean" - now for a puddle jumper that is a cheap thrill.... perhaps a bit too much of a thrill in a Topper of course.
Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5
 
My longish trips in the Topper were decades ago. Tough little boat, but would I want to be twelve nautical miles offshore in her? I would not...

...now, an Osprey?...different story! Though, I may be singing a different tune, when I've capsized three times within ten minutes of first launching. :rolleyes:

But I s'pose it's like climbing to the main yard, versus the royal yard...the higher looks deadlier, but it's nearly as catastrophic falling thirty feet, as seventy...

...over the horizon sounds alarmingly remote, but very bad things happen close inshore, too; no greater probability offshore. Note to self: get VHF...
 
Pleiades said:
...perhaps a bit too much of a thrill in a Topper...
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Many, many years since I went voyaging in the Topper from Bosham...actually I'll be happy not to go anywhere in the old polypropylene bathtub again...

...henceforth, I'll be making my ill-advised voyagettes in a glassfibre bathtub. Bigger, and faster, and capable of filling with much more water... :rolleyes:

Damned shame I didn't have a camera in the old days...I'll be littering the forum with pics of trips, once the weather pulls its chilly finger out. :)
 
If I was going to take a wee boat West from Portland or W'muff I would (in the right weather of course) hug The Bill a biscuit toss offshore - and then keep inshore to West Bay or Lyme Regis - lovely ports of call for small craft - then across to Teignmouth perhaps. You would keep each passage leg short enough to have a chance of getting ashore safely should the weather go belly up. If you want to go dingy sailing offshore then the easiest way is to take a Tinker Tramp on a cruiser. Once you get sufficiently far offshore to feel oceanic, heave too in the cruiser and go for a sail in the Tinker Tramp. That would be fun but might not get around to it anytime soon!
Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5
 
You may find it is defined in your insurance policy. Mine defines coastal waters of the United Kingdom as:
Waters around the coast up to a distance of 12 miles offshore. You can travel between two points in the United Kingdom by the most direct route, even though this may take you outside the 12 mile limit. You are not allowed to travel between Great Britain and the Isle of Man, or Northern Ireland, or the Channel Islands.
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dancrane said:
WARNING: idiot question. I mean, worse than usual.

If you sail out of Weymouth in a dinghy, and avoid Portland Bill by quite a margin, taking account of the tide, and head west for Dartmouth...

...for the hopefully brief period when you're halfway across (more than 12 miles from either side, or from Lyme to the north), are you no longer in 'inshore waters'?
Click to expand...

No but if you cross the bristol channel, thats international. England to Wales you see, boyo.
 
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