Does a lazyjacks system need to be fixed so high on the mast?

[johnalison]

One adjusts the lines when setting them up to avoid that. One does not have tight LJs so the sail gets freedom of movement. Furthermore the LJs should allow the boom to drop a bit so that it does not put excessive weight on the cover. There is no point ripping the attachment points out of it when the vang gets pulled in. It is OK with a soild vang, but with a topping lift system it is easy for a crew to accidentally let it off so that the boom drops causing the LJs to go tight with a lot of heavy rolled up sail sitting inside the cover.
If the lines are joined at the mast they would still need a line to the deck to adjust them & to get them down when required, if a trip up the mast is not on the cards

That might be so with a stack-pack but I need my lazy jacks moderately tight to stop the dropped sail from flopping around, and there is no risk over overtightening because the boom strut will prevent this. Please don’t tell me I must have a stack-pack because I don’t want one. My continuous line was just a feeble joke.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

We have LJs with a stack pack, the LJs are led from the lower diamonds, a bare 1/3 up the mast. If you’ve got full battens, the arse end of the sail is restrained. The positive of the arrangement is that only the top 2 battens are inclined to get caught when you’re hoisting. This, for us, completely outweighs any possible drawback of them being a bit further forward. The sail is adequately restrained when we drop it, and drop it does, being on a few grands worth of recirculating ball cars. It has to be slowed down with the halyard.

 

[doug748]

Right, now we're getting somewhere! What are the disadvantages?

One of the advantages of putting them at spreader height is that they support the boom better. Mine are adjustable, through blocks, at the inboard end of the boom.
This is handy and is often useful when reefing.

 

[Dellquay13]

Mine are fitted to the spreaders some way out from the mast. This gives a nice v-shape so no need for complication of bungees to spread the lines.

Although a benefit of having them on the mast is they stay at the same tension no matter the lateral movement of the boom. Fitted on the spreaders they will get tighter on the windward side as the boom swings to leeward.

If you fit bungees to keep them spread wide, run the bungee out from the LJ and round the shroud, back across the front of the mast to the opposite shroud, then back the other side of the LJ. That way as the boom swings the bungee tension equalises itself.

 

[Gixer]

I had lazyjacks but they weren't designed right and kept snagging, I looked at getting some properly made with a stack pack but the cost was high. I took the badly designed LJ's off a few years ago and TBH don't miss them. On my 27 the main is not big and once dropped I can stand in the companion way and get a sail tie around the body of the sail. It's not pretty but keeps it out of the way until I'm alongside or in calmer water.

 

[srm]

That might be so with a stack-pack but I need my lazy jacks moderately tight to stop the dropped sail from flopping around, and there is no risk over overtightening because the boom strut will prevent this. Please don’t tell me I must have a stack-pack because I don’t want one. My continuous line was just a feeble joke.

Not a silly idea. I first set up lazyjacks in the early 80's on a heavy 42 ft sloop with big main and short battens. I often sailed single handed and got fed up of the sail cluttering up the deck and blocking the view when I dropped it. The idea came from a picture of a gaff sail on a working boat where the lazy jacks controlled both sail and gaff when lowered.

Stack packs had not been invented so the lazy jack lines were set up between the foot of the sail and the boom hanging in loops vertically off a line that ran from port lower spreader to a block on the outhaul, back to a block on the stbd spreader and down to deck so the tension could be adjusted.

Sailing in Norway we dropped the main just off a pier then moored alongside. Someone came to ask how we had managed to drop the sail so quickly and keep it balanced on the top of the boom.

 

[Daydream believer]

Well o Ibought the boat with them attached and not having used such a thing before I didn’t have much fun….I suppose if I had consulted the forum I might have kept them,but It never occurred to me to bother the forum over such a small matter.My next boat probably will have them as they are more universal

Put a set on your grass box to help tip the grass really fast

 

[srm]

Although a benefit of having them on the mast is they stay at the same tension no matter the lateral movement of the boom. Fitted on the spreaders they will get tighter on the windward side as the boom swings to leeward.

Really, never had that problem on any of my boats and lazyjacks always running from well out on the spreaders. However, the difference is that a) I have always designed and set up my own adjustable at deck level and b) on my own boats all halyards are managed at the mast so it is no haste to adjust them after setting the sail, or reefing, and to add a bit of tension before lowering.
To answer @Daydream believer I regard being able to safely ponce around the deck in open water and a F8 as essential to the safe management of my boats, and they are set up to allow this. If not how do you mange when something does go wrong and need attention from outside of the cockpit.

 

[Wansworth]

Put a set on your grass box to help tip the grass really fast

That’s below the belt

 

[Daydream believer]

To answer @Daydream believer I regard being able to safely ponce around the deck in open water and a F8 as essential to the safe management of my boats, and they are set up to allow this. If not how do you mange when something does go wrong and need attention from outside of the cockpit.

Firstly, things on a properly set up boat do not go wrong. I did go forward to set mooring lines & fenders before entering port so I was perfectly capable
Second, I would go forward & deal with anything that has NOT gone wrong in the past 20 years.
Just because I had it sorted to save me doing so did not mean that I could not. My third reef for F9 conditions DID need me on deck to set the reef. But I have only had to do that once in 20 years & managed it- as well as being sea sick at the time.
That being said, I have now broken my femour & now have great difficulty getting on to the deck, even whilst at the dock side. However, There is no need. What do you expect to go wrong?

 

[Stemar]

I regard being able to safely ponce around the deck in open water and a F8 as essential to the safe management of my boats

Agreed, up to a point but, personally, I hope never to have to. If I'm out in F8, I've got it all very badly wrong

Firstly, things on a properly set up boat do not go wrong.

That's a nice theory, but...

LJs should be set up so the sail can be dropped and held safely in pretty much any conditions, preferably from the cockpit. My main does require going to the mast but, with the wimpy sailing I do, especially with a cat, conditions should never be so bad that it's a problem.

When fitting LJs to Jissel and, more recently, to a friend's Nic 32, I ran a line under the boom and tied the lines to this, which allowed experimentation as to the best placement. I found that the first line needs to be just beyond the end of the top batten, and the second, just beyond the end of the second batten to reduce catching. Once I'd got the best positions, I riveted deck eyes in the right place either side of the boom, and cheek blocks on the mast, just below the spreaders. The lines then came down to cleats on the mast to allow for lowering.

 

[johnalison]

Firstly, things on a properly set up boat do not go wrong. I did go forward to set mooring lines & fenders before entering port so I was perfectly capable
Second, I would go forward & deal with anything that has NOT gone wrong in the past 20 years.
Just because I had it sorted to save me doing so did not mean that I could not. My third reef for F9 conditions DID need me on deck to set the reef. But I have only had to do that once in 20 years & managed it- as well as being sea sick at the time.
That being said, I have now broken my femour & now have great difficulty getting on to the deck, even whilst at the dock side. However, There is no need. What do you expect to go wrong?

Well, things do go wrong occasionally, and I regard my boat as being reasonably well ordered. I don't regard it as essential to be able to ponce around in a F8, but it would be unseamanlike not to have the facility for going forward if necessary. I can avoid going out in a F8 these days, and I think the last event that could be called an emergency was when a nav light detached itself from the pulpit somewhere south of Jersey in boisterous rather than rough conditions about ten years ago. This was probably the result of damage caused by a Dutch sailor some years previously when we were moored. As it happened, it was not unduly hard to clip to the jackstay and wedge myself into the pulpit to effect a temporary repair, something that was probably not elegant, but safe enough.

 

[PaulGS]

When fitting LJs to Jissel and, more recently, to a friend's Nic 32, I ran a line under the boom and tied the lines to this, which allowed experimentation as to the best placement. I found that the first line needs to be just beyond the end of the top batten, and the second, just beyond the end of the second batten to reduce catching. Once I'd got the best positions, I riveted deck eyes in the right place either side of the boom, and cheek blocks on the mast, just below the spreaders. The lines then came down to cleats on the mast to allow for lowering.

I've seen this 'line under the boom' idea elsewhere and I think it's a good one! I think you're right, 'experimentation' is key too. As for the cheek blocks: I know that's standard practice but my rig already makes enough noise; I thought to just run the lines through pad eyes.

 

[srm]

What do you expect to go wrong?

Nothing.
Based on just shy of fifty years continuous yacht ownership I do my best to anticipate, hence preferring to have halyards and reefing at the mast as its easier to see what is happening up the mast and setting the boat up so that it is safe to ponce around at will, and doing so, just in case I ever really have to. Having spent most of my working life at, or associated with, the sea as well as using it for leisure I have found one thing that seems fairly constant:

"If you do something for long enough everything that can go wrong will go wrong".

Sorry to hear about your injury, hope you get mobile again very soon.

 

[Daydream believer]

Nothing.
Based on just shy of fifty years continuous yacht ownership I do my best to anticipate, hence preferring to have halyards and reefing at the mast as its easier to see what is happening up the mast and setting the boat up so that it is safe to ponce around at will, and doing so, just in case I ever really have to. Having spent most of my working life at, or associated with, the sea as well as using it for leisure I have found one thing that seems fairly constant:

"If you do something for long enough everything that can go wrong will go wrong".

Sorry to hear about your injury, hope you get mobile again very soon.

Trying to stand on the cabin top holding on to the mast with one hand whilst trying to pull a halyard with the other is not my idea of making things easier. I can see plenty of the mast & sails, standing with myself braced in the cockpit with my knees against the seating & a hand on the winch, (the other free) or firmly in the hatch way, whilst looking at an angle, rather than getting dizzy looking straight up. Even granny bars around the mast do not suit my 6ft 5 inch frame as those I have used have been too low for the c of g for my tall frame.
I learned that with 61 years of sailing on various yachts behind me.
As for climbing up on a mast step to gather in the head of the sail- well I have not had the pleasure of that one yet & hope that I never will.

 

[srm]

Trying to stand on the cabin top holding on to the mast with one hand whilst trying to pull a halyard with the other is not my idea of making things easier. I can see plenty of the mast & sails, standing with myself braced in the cockpit with my knees against the seating & a hand on the winch, (the other free) or firmly in the hatch way, whilst looking at an angle, rather than getting dizzy looking straight up. Even granny bars around the mast do not suit my 6ft 5 inch frame as those I have used have been too low for the c of g for my tall frame.
I learned that with 61 years of sailing on various yachts behind me.
As for climbing up on a mast step to gather in the head of the sail- well I have not had the pleasure of that one yet & hope that I never will.

As I have implied, its a case of setting up the boat to suit the way it will be handled and sailed. I would no doubt find as many things on your boat that I do not like as you would on one I had set up to suit me. Fortunately, sailing is one of the few remaining areas where we are each free to make our own choices and live with our own decisions.

 

[Daydream believer]

While lazyjacks are useful for singlehanders by far the best first step is to lead lines aft to the cockpit.

Surely the first step is to adjust them correctly in the first place & never have to adjust them again all season. Once mine are set they stay set. Seems pointless to have yet more lines in the cockpit to adjust when hoisting/lowering sails. I have 26 control options already.

 

[Tranona]

Surely the first step is to adjust them correctly in the first place & never have to adjust them again all season. Once mine are set they stay set. Seems pointless to have yet more lines in the cockpit to adjust when hoisting/lowering sails. I have 26 control options already.

You misunderstand. My comment was in response to the OP saying he handled all lines at the mast. I was not suggesting he took the LJ falls back to the cockpit.

 

[B27]

Mine are at the spreaders on a fractional rig boat, so less than 50% up the luff.
We have a stack pack.
The only thought I need to give to them is to take care the battens don't catch during hoisting.
Maybe lower is better from this POV, because during a hoist, the batten ends are outside the lazyjacks sooner?
So long as you look at the sail while hoisting, it's a non-problem, you just hoist when things aren't going to catch.

Sail is on luff slides.
A bolt rope luff might be a different animal?

 

[GHA]

Mine are at the spreaders on a fractional rig boat, so less than 50% up the luff.

Mine are on the outside of mast steps a bit above the single spreaders, then into a dyneema clutch near the base of the mast. Makes it easy to adjust as the boom is a fair bit higher in use than when stowed in the boom gallows & leaves the sail cover hanging down too floppy unless adjusted under way. Before pulling up the anchor usually the port side LJ gets slackened & tied back towards the mast with the tail of the pole halyard then the autopilot set to steer with the wind slightly to starboard of the bow.
Always solo with all lines at the mast apart from topping lift which is on a clutch on one of the backstays.