Do you want to become a surveyor, new training course.

[luddites]

Many who post on these forums would make good surveyors and might fancy a career change. A new training course endorsed by the YDSA (but open to all) is now available at IBTC Lowestoft:


In 2007 IBTC is offering a new yacht and small craft surveyor training course which has been endorsed by the Yacht Designers and Surveyors Association. The new course moves the emphasis back to practical training and consists of four or five weeks leading to application to the YDSA for Membership at Affiliate level, and is most suited to individuals who have some knowledge of yachts and small craft wishing to increase their practical experience. The course is not classroom based, the intensive practical training centres around a variety of real boats under actual survey conditions and is specifically designed to bridge the gap between the study of theory and actually commencing survey work, which until now has been a very difficult transition. The course demonstrates and teaches the investigative and recognition techniques required to identify defects within a Pre-Purchase Survey context, and how to adequately quantify and describe these in a survey report.
The practical training is supported by written modules and practical “how to” guides covering all aspects of the survey process including report writing. The practical guides are profusely illustrated with actual defects to aid detection and recognition. The modules are available at time of registration for study in advance of the practical courses. The maximum intake will be 12 per course with a minimum of 1 tutor to 6 delegates at all times. Two courses are scheduled for 2007, one in the Spring and one in the Autumn.
The tutors are all active surveyors with over 70 years experience between them, this specifically in the Yacht and Small Craft sector. They are also long standing YDSA or Royal Institute of Naval Architecture members.

For full Course Prospectus and Programme visit www.ibtc.co.uk

 

[FullCircle]

The site is not good at stating course fees, which kind of annoys me.A bit.

I would much rather they posted the prices and the special offer discounts and the BOGOF offers, rather than the lame enquiry page.


They do offer generous discounts, and it is a reasonable syllabus, but I note you are not promoting the course leading to a Degree, so is that now not the case? Has the accent moved to increasing knowledge of craft, rather than accreditation at a decent level. I think Affiliate is on ly the first step? How does that relate to becoming a Member?



Also, when I enquired in October/November, I was told that the Lowestoft based Surveying course was being done at the South Coast, and only boat building going on at Lowestioft.
In addition, no chance of a retraining grant for long term unemployed, as it does not qualify.

But alas this would eat into my yachting budget, with no guarantees of regular income.

I will therefore continue to squander my yachting budget on yachting, even though I would like to be a Surveyor.

 

[Poignard]

[ QUOTE ]
...suited to individuals who have some knowledge of yachts and small craft ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't seem to require much in the way of previous experience. Is "some knowledge" plus a 5-week course going to make someone competent to go out and produce authoritative surveys of complex and valuable boats?

Personally I wouldn't trust such a person, unless he had been employed as a boatbuilder working on all kinds of craft and/or followed up his 5-week course with several years on-the-job training with an experienced surveyor.

 

[Ariadne]

Unlike 'FullCircle' thanks for the link.

Managed to download a course prospectus without any difficulty, which contains most of the information you require.
Also visited the YDSA website for details on membership, this is an approved course for Affiliate membership, from here you can progress to full membership.

Its all there if you look. Fees when I checked are £799.00 per module. 4 are compulsary and 1 is optional (wooden boats).

Could be a nice way to fund a RTW trip don't you think? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Ariadne]

When I spoke to the guy 'some knowledge' should read a practicle knowledge of boats, how they work, react and how they fir together etc.

So anybody who has a Certificate of Competency (engineering or deck officer) would be deemed to have 'some knowledge'. Fair cop a good way to retire from the sea and still stay in touch, so to speak.

 

[Dyflin]

Just a word of warning. I considered doing this type of course at another establishment. In the end I didn't pursue it, buy boy are they keen to pursue me. All sorts of "junk mail" in my inbox and in the post. The price seems to drop the closer to the start date too. Not a good sign I thought.

 

[luddites]

All the fees are published in the course programme and prospectus on the college website.

The college has approval for various grants towards re-training including those for ex service personnel and this course does qualify so you might like to check this.

No it is not a degree course, it is what used to be called vocational training and is simply offering a different more practically based choice for those who might prefer it.

I posted this latest info for the large number of people who pm'd me last time and aked me to do so when it was available, and I hope it is helpful.

 

[tangomoon]

Same here thanks - some things require a little persistence and intelligence

 

[Birdseye]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...suited to individuals who have some knowledge of yachts and small craft ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't seem to require much in the way of previous experience. Is "some knowledge" plus a 5-week course going to make someone competent to go out and produce authoritative surveys of complex and valuable boats?

Personally I wouldn't trust such a person, unless he had been employed as a boatbuilder working on all kinds of craft and/or followed up his 5-week course with several years on-the-job training with an experienced surveyor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure whether I agree with you. When my previous boat had osmosis I spoke to several self professed experts. I found myself talking to people who hadnt the faintest understanding of the chemistry involved and who all had different and conflicting slants on the way to handle the issue. I suspect that most ex boatbuilders would be as technically qualified to pronounce on a boat problem as car mechanics are on car problems - OK if its pretty obvious / commonplace but out of their depth on anything complicated. That said, would a surveyor off this course be any better placed? I think not.

And when you have had a boat surveyed, havent you found things that the surveyor missed or was going to miss until you pointed them out. I certainly have, and not minor things either. Same with houses it must be said.

I reckon the best point about a surveyor is his PI insurance. As foir the survey itself, an intelligent owner with time to spend can do a fair job in most areas.

 

[luddites]

"Doesn't seem to require much in the way of previous experience. Is "some knowledge" plus a 5-week course going to make someone competent to go out and produce authoritative surveys of complex and valuable boats?

Personally I wouldn't trust such a person, unless he had been employed as a boatbuilder working on all kinds of craft and/or followed up his 5-week course with several years on-the-job training with an experienced surveyor. "

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it may be helpful if you read and absorbed the course prospectus before posting here. This course is just one part in the process of becoming a surveyor but some of us believe intensive practical demonstration and tuition by highly experienced surveyors has a place in that process. One can obtain a myriad of qualifications these days without hardly ever leaving your PC and this is just an alternative which some will find useful in conjunction with other training.

 

[stephenmartin]

I found the course and fees quickly from the web site...is there much call for surveyors and who would employ a green surveyor

It sounds quite incestuous like many other boating trades

 

[Woodlouse]

You seem to forget that to become a surveyor you don't actually need any qualifications at all. So it would appear to me that this course is better than nothing when it comes to starting in this profession.

 

[Bajansailor]

Hello, I thought I would just chip in my two cents worth, after having worked in the marine survey field here in Barbados for the past 8 years.

My background is naval architecture and boat design - I basically got into survey work because there was little demand for boat designers when I moved back here (to Barbados) after living in England for 15 years.
I first spent a year working in a small boatyard here, where we were building 27' fibreglass fishing vessels, and doing repairs and refits - I jumped in at the deep end (I had only done a 1 week City & Guilds GRP laminating course before that), and learnt a hell of a lot about fibreglass during this year.
I enjoyed working in this yard, although it would not have met any of the H & S standards in England, especially re fibreglass dust - it wasnt a very healthy atmosphere to work in...... I realised the effect it was having on me when I would wake up during the night coughing (and I am not a smoker!).......

The founder of our little survey company wanted someone to join him then, as he was singlehanded, 70, and wanted to slow down a bit. So I chucked in my job at the boatbuilding yard, and started doing surveys for David on a part itme basis re fishing boats, and the odd yacht - usually just basic insurance surveys, but occasionally a more in-depth condition survey.

I bought a few books, and beaned up on them - my bibles include 'Surveying Small Craft' and 'Small Steel Craft' by Ian Nicholson, 'Aluminium Boatbuilding' by Ernie Sims, a fibreglass repair book by Allan Vaitses (loaned out, and never returned /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif..... ), and Nigel Calder's 'Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual'.

There are not enough small craft here to earn a living from survey work alone, hence I gradually got into ship and cargo surveys as well. Again I jumped in at the deep end here - didnt have the foggiest idea what a draft survey was the first time I was sent to do one, so I peered over the shoulder of the Chief Officer of the cargo ship and pretended to know what was going on as he worked out the calculations, then took them home afterwards and spent hours working through them again.......

Bought an excellent book as well, simply called 'Marine Surveys' as well as a few from The Nautical Institute and the Anchorage Press about different aspects of ship and cargo surveying (and draft surveys....).

We now do all types of ship surveys, including draft, on/off hire, bunkers, tank ullage (including molasses discharge), damage, and annual safety surveys, including annual inspections for a couple of flag states.

I have no formal qualifications as such in Marine Surveying, but I have survived in the field for 8 years, and I have never had any PI insurance, as I simply could not afford it. Instead, if a survey job looks too potentially dodgy, litigational or contentious, or I feel that I do not know enough about that type of boat or method of construction, I can always refuse to take it on.

I don't believe in padding out reports with un-necessary waffle - we try to be concise and to the point. As David pointed out to me early on - 'Stick to the facts, and be very careful when stating opinions' (which might be mis-construed as facts).

We (I now have two other partners, a mechanical engineer and a micro-biologist - David died 2 years ago) do not earn an awful lot from survey work here, but we have low overheads and it pays the bills, and between the three of us (along with a few other Associates we can call on) can manage to cover most types of survey jobs.

BTW, my two partners do not have any survey qualifications as such either - however they have considerable experience in their respective fields, and are very capable when it comes to writing accurate reports.

It was probably easier for me starting off in this field in Barbados, rather than say in England, as there are very few marine surveyors here, but the bottom line of the story above is that one can become a marine surveyor without collecting lots of paper qualifications along the way - perhaps more important is practical experience in the field, along with a basic ability to write a reasonable report which is impartial and sticks to the facts.

 

[luddites]

Hello Stephen,

yes there is a growing demand for yacht and small craft surveyors coupled with an ageing surveyor workforce. There are few employment oportunities in the field and most new surveyors start their own business from day one. This course is an alternative to new surveyors "cutting their teeth" on real Clients, which happens all the time, albeit unbeknowing to the Clients.
The course also teaches how to compose a concise report where fact and opinion are never confused.

 

[thailand69]

I would guess that the key is obtaining PI insurance and being part of a recognised trade association, particulerly to deal with Insurance companies - who I suspect would require at least the PI from any surveyor.

The Course seems a bit pricey, given that it won't start someone from scratch to expert - unsurprisingly so in 5 weeks!

But if I was going into this I guess it would be a good enough way to start............

 

[Poignard]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it may be helpful if you read and absorbed the course prospectus before posting here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do assure you that I have read the course prospectus, both before my initial post and again after reading your response.

I have also re-read my post and would not alter one word of it; although it might have been helpful to add that I hold a Department of Transport Certificate of Competency [Marine Engineer Officer] and have sea experience as an Engineer Officer and Electrical Officer in the British Merchant Navy, in addition to having owned and maintained/restored three classic boats, two of wooden construction and one of grp/ wood composite construction.

Having the pre-requisite "some knowledge" I might be allowed to join the course and I'm sure I would get the certificate but, never having worked as a boatbuilder on a commercial basis and lacking any practical experience of modern boat construction, I would not dream of setting myself up as a "qualified" surveyor until I had at least a year working intensively with someone who was properly qualified.

Meanwhile, I am grateful that you have let me know how easy it is to become a surveyor. I shall bear it in mind next time I have to choose one to survey my boat; in fact, I might even do it myself. Come to think of it, I could do the course and soon recover the fees by not having to pay a surveyor in future!

 

[Woodlouse]

All very well, and yes you could do you own surveys in the future. But no one will accept a survey that you've done on a boat that you have a financial intrest in.

Hence, even the best surveyors need to get a surveyor in to look at their boats.

 

[luddites]

We can agree to differ but that's a civilised enough position.

Another thing you might like to do next time you choose a surveyor is ask for a copy of their PI Insurance. In a completely unregulated feild like this it is a perfectly legitimate request, and plenty are working without it.
Some (but not all) of the various bodies to which surveyors belong make PI Insurance mandatory for their members and check it at each renewal date.

 

[Guest]

Again ???

I applaud Lowestoft and any establishment that wishes to train people up to be proficient in any work.

But why push YBDSA ? We have gone over this ground before ... YBDSA, YDSA, to use 2 of their initials ... are NOT the official be and end all of Surveying ... in fact they do NOT represent the majority of Surveyors. They are a self-appointed, self-regulated body without Professional Official Status.

Anyone can become Associate Member with only limited experience after a few surveys are read / scrutinised by their panel. After sufficient period and further surveys / courses etc. full membership awarded ...

As a Survey Company owner ? As I say - I applaud a School / Establishment wanting to teach people ... but would prefer if the Industry was used as a whole ... not just a part. There are many extremely valuable experienced people out there - designing boats, building boats, repairing boats, even surveying boats that have immeasurable amounts of expertise ... and NOT members of YBDSA.

Sorry that single fact has killed it for me.

 

[Guest]

This is a problem ...

[ QUOTE ]
All very well, and yes you could do you own surveys in the future. But no one will accept a survey that you've done on a boat that you have a financial intrest in.

Hence, even the best surveyors need to get a surveyor in to look at their boats.

[/ QUOTE ]

I own a Survey Company ... I am surveyor of many years standing ... Yachts and Ships / cargoes etc. BUT - I am not accepted to survey my own craft for Insurance purposes for obvious reasons..... regardless of how honest I would report.

But I do agree with the experience statement of Twisterowner. There is no substitute for it ... theory is fine - but no good across one of my Inspectors desks. Paper is only a very small part of my appraisal for any new employee. Aptitude, willingness to learn, ability to think on own feet, knowing when to answer, knowing when to ask ... and willingness to observe.