Do you ignore col regs

[DAKA]

Is Scuttleburks meant to be a term of endearment? You seem to use it all the time. Sounds a bit sneering and unpleasant to me, and not particularly conducive to good Mobo / Raggie relationships.

Could it be that you are keen to dish it out but not so good at receiving?

- W

I would like to apologise to any butts that felt unendeared and in the interests of forum harmony I will try to refrain from ever using it again on the scuttlebutts forum.

The difference was the very personal nature of your post headed 'DAKA'

 

[fireball]

Vela's Insurance will only allow RYA qualified skippers at the helm.

I would find that hard to believe ... that would preclude the skipper from carrying out other more important duties such as Navigation. It may require a "qualified skipper" on board as the boats skipper though.

It is safe to assume that Vela was under control of an RYA qualified skipper or a skipper under RYA instruction at the time the photo was taken.

If your seemingly false statement above or my assumption of the likely insurance requirements are correct then it is probable that an "RYA Qualified Skipper" was onboard - whether or not they were under control is less clear - in both shots the sails do not appear to be drawing correctly, it would not be unreasonable to assume therefore that they either had a novice at the helm or they had other issues with the vessel.
If there was a novice at the helm then it is conceivable that the "RYA Qualified Skipper" was otherwise engaged in perhaps the smallest room at the time of the incident - and not fully aware of the reality of the situation.

Other explanations could have included that vela was stolen but you would have thought the fractional manager would have mentioned that when I spoke to him a few days after the incident.

The current thread and the sister thread on scuttleburks was started following the rallying of defence on scuttleburks towards morons who sail into situations such as pictured above.

ANYONE who thinks its acceptable to get bow to as close to a ship as that (even if docked) shouldnt be on the water, I dont care how many RYA qualifications they have.

Unless web craft and Tim can agree on that statement then they are not likely to have any respect on these forums, sail or power.

I'll ignore all that lot as it includes petty insults and emotional outbursts unbecoming Daka ...

The term "RYA Qualified Skipper " can mean a lot of things, however at a minimum it refers to someone who has successfully completed the DaySkipper theory and practical - these are attendance courses and whilst many instructors will evaluate their students correctly I have seen some students 'pass' who I wouldn't have.

 

[DAKA]

- in both shots the sails do not appear to be drawing correctly,
.

Are you suggesting he was a bit of a coward and attempting to spill wind in an attempt to allow the Frigate to pass by infront of him.
Should someone take a note of his sail number and report him for breaking the law.
Do you think if they prosecute to make an example of one or two the other cowardly 80% will also get the message.

 

[timbartlett]

Could it be that you are keen to dish it out but not so good at receiving?

Took the words right out of my mouth!

 

[westernman]

You can't win with fishing boats. They may well be steering to the display on the fishfinder. You just have to keep out of their way, even if they seem to be trying to collide with you. In any event this isn't really relevant to this topic as originally posted as a fishing vessel engaged in fishing is nearly always the stand-on vessel.

- W

I should have added, that the fishing boat is definitely not fishing - this is inside a large port.

 

[Cruiser2B]

Another concrete situation (which happened to me):-

You are motoring on a straight line course at 180 opposed of that of another vessel, a fishing trawler, coming towards you. You are on each others starboard side. But you are on a collision course - at least you are going to remove a good amount of paint from the starboard side.

You make change of 15 degrees to starboard at a range of about 700m. I.e. a fairly comfortable distance for the size of boats involved. Then you perceive that the fishing boat is still on a collision course for you - he must have changed course at about the same time to port.

What do you do now?

Was the change of 15 degrees to starboard wrong?

Well here you have an example of the confusion that is caused when the other guy doesn't do what he is supposed to do, and turns to port instead.

I assume you sounded one short blast with your turn to starboard? It is often arranged via VHF for vessels to pass green to green if it is convenient, but the trawler's assumption of that without contacting you, was wrong.

5 short blasts, then watching the trawler closely would be the immediate actions, and turning opposite the trawler if necessary. That means if the idiot turns further to port, then your best action might be to turn to port and sound 2 short blasts.

 

[timbartlett]

I should have added, that the fishing boat is definitely not fishing - this is inside a large port.

This is a much more difficult problem than the tanker, because you are dealing with a vessel whose actions are unpredictable -- because (ironically, for this thread!) the only thing you know about it is that it has broken one of the colregs by applying misplaced "common sense"!
But it's also a very common situation, and not just with FVs.
FWIW, I think your initial alteration to starboard was absolutely correct (Rule 14a) and the FV was absolutely wrong (Rule 14c).
But having recognised that the FV is not following the rules I think the only safe options are either to stop or to turn through 180degrees.
But having identified the situation at nearly half a mile does give you a bit more room to manoeuvre. It's hard to say without being there, but I think I would alter course boldly to starboard (maybe 60 degrees) and (depending how fast I was going) slow down. It's quite possible that the situation will quickly resolve itself.
PS I'm not suggesting that Cruiser 2B is wrong: the problem is that the only thing we know about the FV is that he is unpredictable. A classic (and common!) example of why the colregs are important. And his unpredictability makes us unpredictable, too.

 

[westernman]

Well here you have an example of the confusion that is caused when the other guy doesn't do what he is supposed to do, and turns to port instead.

I assume you sounded one short blast with your turn to starboard? It is often arranged via VHF for vessels to pass green to green if it is convenient, but the trawler's assumption of that without contacting you, was wrong.

5 short blasts, then watching the trawler closely would be the immediate actions, and turning opposite the trawler if necessary. That means if the idiot turns further to port, then your best action might be to turn to port and sound 2 short blasts.

You are right - I should have sounded a blast as I turned to starboard - but did not have my horn to hand. There was no time to be messing about with VHF, nor 5 blasts and waiting.

As soon as I realised what was happening, I turned 120 degrees to port (i.e. at right angles to his new path), until well clear before resuming my course.

I was very unhappy at the time, that some how I should have known that he wanted to pass starboard to starboard, but I still don't see how I could have known. We both turned at the same time making the situation potentially dangerous.

 

[timbartlett]

You are right - I should have sounded a blast as I turned to starboard - but did not have my horn to hand. There was no time to be messing about with VHF, nor 5 blasts and waiting.

I wouldn't wear a hair shirt over it: the chances of your horn being heard (and recgnised) over the sound of the engine, the radio, the whistling kettle etc. in the wheelhouse of a fishing boat nearly half a mile away is what my old maths teacher used to call "vanishingly small"!

A BIG alteration of course (in either direction) is much more effective!

 

[boatmaster]

Someone wake me please when this ones done.

Yawn yawn

 

[hlb]

So are we all still sneaking round the back of the ship, or what.

 

[PaulGooch]

So are we all still sneaking round the back of the ship, or what.

I am.

But, i am doing it early enough and obviously enough that i'm not breaking Colregs.

 

[Alfie168]

Someone wake me please when this ones done.

Yawn yawn

Was that what the master of the fishing vessel said..

Tim

 

[hlb]

I am.

But, i am doing it early enough and obviously enough that i'm not breaking Colregs.

But if you dont have a crash, how do you know you broke a colreg or not.

In any case, I would think the distance a ship has to look ahead, is much greater than a Mobo.

I'm begining to worry how I've survived through my 44 years of boating.

 

[[2068]]

I'm begining to worry how I've survived through my 44 years of boating.

Probably by using common sense and good seamanship in the first place to keep away from things such that you aren't reading out Rule 13 and trying to get an accurate bearing on the vessel that is about to mow you down.

 

[DAKA]

Took the words right out of my mouth!

With in minutes of me learning that you were actually relying on your knowledge of col regs to earn a living I threw you a monkeys fist which you could have used to haul yourself out of the oggin.
Before thinking to check if it contained a walnut or musket ball you threw it back .

you have now got a tidal wave of mobo skippers equally perplexed as I am about your advice.

You need to re read your posts looking for reasons why many (actually the majority) are interpreting your posts as instructions of how to encounter near death experiences.

I presume you know what you are talking about however you are failing to get your message across to us to the extent , the message that comes across to us sounds suicidal.

Can we rely on 2b to keep us with the letter of the law.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

despite your heroic nature to stand on until a few minutes to impact many of us with families on board feel we are in immediate danger much further away from your kill zone.
We just dont want to allow a tanker on our port side to helm a course to pass our stern with a 0-200 m clearance, special consideration being

the tanker has left it too late to be able to stop or alter course significantly and
mobo can suffer a fouled prop and leave her dead in the water in front of the tanker.

seeing as you condone posts that question individuals standing on the forum what do you think about a poll now asking how many mobo owners are taking any notice of the current way in which you represent the col regs ?

Its a way of sorting it out, either you can give up in the knowledge that 99% now trust your advice or I can give up knowing that 80% are still not taking any notice of you anyway.

BTW
I dont think you are technically wrong, its just the way you are putting it across that is frightening.

 

[kcrane]

I am.

But, i am doing it early enough and obviously enough that i'm not breaking Colregs.

Agreed.

We cross the channel a few times a year. I just asked SWMBO what she would do (using a mobile phone as our boat and various computer mice as a stream of ships in the traffic lanes, just so you can visualise the scene) if AIS told us that there was a chance we'd be less than half a mile of so of those big devils going left to right in front of us.

Her first reaction was "don't you try to trick me with your technical boating questions" followed by "It doesn't seem that hard, we'd slow down just a bit till AIS said we'd pass astern or, if sea conditions meant slowing down would be uncomfortable, we'd turn slightly to port and go astern before the big boat started to get worried."

That is what I'd do too.

As a matter of interest for those with big ship bridge experience, how early do we need to make a course or speed correction to be ahead of said ship feeling they needed to do anything? I'm thinking in terms of how many miles away?

 

[benjenbav]

Agreed.


As a matter of interest for those with big ship bridge experience, how early do we need to make a course or speed correction to be ahead of said ship feeling they needed to do anything? I'm thinking in terms of how many miles away?

Serious point: Tim's right but so, in a way, are lots of others on here. This question kind of illustrates it. The legal answer is that you're not going into a rule 17 situation if you are 6 miles away and that's why Tim has stuck to his guns, although he doesn't need my help on this one!

Many people think that it's ok to take a modern mobo within three miles and then decide to slow down to allow the ship coming from port to pass ahead. Given the relative size and manoeuvrablity of the craft it's certainly not impossible that a modern case on this point would redefine the law. But that's just conjecture.

 

[Cruiser2B]

As a matter of interest for those with big ship bridge experience, how early do we need to make a course or speed correction to be ahead of said ship feeling they needed to do anything? I'm thinking in terms of how many miles away?

Good question. You should assume that from at least 6 miles, the bridge crew is watching you and making plans to avoid you. That said, the average range at which a manoeuvre is made, is closer to 2-3 miles - this accounts plotting your movements, planning a solution, trialling on ARPA, informing the captain if necessary, etc, etc. There are sometimes other anti-collision situations also at play - this could cause the ship to alter earlier, or later than the rough 2-3 mile average.
In answer to your question, you can probably take action as close as 4 miles without perturbing the big ship too much, as long as it is bold and plainly obvious (30° or more). This is not strictly in accordance with colregs, so if you made your move sooner, it would be better.

 

[hlb]

Yep I never understood the reason, for the lights on the boat that was to mow you down. Does it really matter if it's a battle ship or a muck spreader.