Do you ignore col regs

[rbcoomer]

When I head off to sea in my 22ft sail driven cockleshell I have every intention of obeying and applying col regs. When I meet a 100 + ft Gargantuship my confidence seems to flag for reasons I can't quite put my finger on..but through your mind go thoughts like..has he seen me, does he care, could he stop even though I am stand on vessel going at 3.5 knots as to his 17knots...if I get in his wind shadow I stop completely anyway..so I'm fooked....so...basically you chicken out half the time and play a waiting game for a gap where you hope you can play it safe.

I also have great difficulty with ships judging distances/speed so if there is ever a toy I will buy for my boat it will be an AIS. I have to say I tend not to have trouble with smaller boats, whether Motor or Sail, as I find the speed/spacial relationship a lot easier to handle, and whilst its nice when they are sailing right I don't assume they will.

Whilst it is no excuse. you have to remember that a lot of people who put to sea are occcasional weekend sailers/moboers...amateurs just like me. A goodly proportion will just get it wrong from time to time, and I include myself in there. Most of us try not to.

Tim

Succinctly put! I'd like to think that as I get more experience, and certainly before I'd ever take charge of anything more seagoing than I currently have, that I'd gain more confidence not to run and hide from the big stuff. However in reality I'd probably aim to stay well away regardless - for me that's quite easy as I'm nowhere near the big ports, but even a trawler's big alongside me and I keep away from them too! We all have to start somewhere, but perhaps as we gain experience and confidence we move towards the view that we can rely more on rules and less on instinct to get out of the way?

Everyone laughed at me after my first run out as the first thing I added was a big ski mirror - no intention of skiing, just lost without a 'rear view mirror' (not that I still don't keep spinning around in my seat too, looking for stuff that might be bearing down on us!)

 

[timbartlett]

And rule 2(b) applies at all times too.

Rule 2a is the one that says that nothing in these rules exonerates any vessel from the consequences of neglect in complying with the rules

Rule 2b is the one that allows you to depart from the rules in special circumstances.

I don't think "I didn't think the rules ought to apply to me" ranks as a special circumstance.

Perhaps you do.

 

[timbartlett]

We all have to start somewhere, but perhaps as we gain experience and confidence we move towards the view that we can rely more on rules and less on instinct to get out of the way?

I can sympathise with the idea that for a novice to boating there seems to be an awful lot to learn, and that you will pick up more as you go along.

But I find it hard to believe that when you first started driving you relied on "instinct" to tell you which side of the road to drive on, not to blunder straight onto roundabouts without giving way to traffic already on the roundabout, or that you have to stop at red traffic lights?

The collision regulations are a lot simpler than the road traffic acts, the official text is very widely available (and in plain english) and there are plenty of books available for anyone who wants a user-friendly explanation. And if you really must, there are even books that will spoon-feed you with dumbed-down extracts that paraphrase the most important rules.

But please don't be misled by the idea that the colregs are optional, that they don't apply to us, or that we can pick and choose which ones we obey and which ones we can ignore when it suits us.

 

[hlb]

But I find it hard to believe that when you first started driving you relied on "instinct" to tell you which side of the road to drive on, not to blunder straight onto roundabouts without giving way to traffic already on the roundabout, or that you have to stop at red traffic lights?

The collision regulations are a lot simpler than the road traffic acts, the official text is very widely available (and in plain english) and there are plenty of books available for anyone who wants a user-friendly explanation. And if you really must, there are even books that will spoon-feed you with dumbed-down extracts that paraphrase the most important rules.

But please don't be misled by the idea that the colregs are optional, that they don't apply to us, or that we can pick and choose which ones we obey and which ones we can ignore when it suits us.

Yep, but you have first to decide whether the boat coming towards you. is going to follow Col regs, or cut the corner and take the inside route round the bend. A trawler's never going to stay to port of you, they just go in straight lines.

Col regs would be easy, if tuther lot were following them, but they hardly ever are.

Roads are easy to sort out, because your either going this way or that.

Take a busy place like Plymouth sound, then try to work out which way this other bloke is going.

Col regs only come into play, once a colision is likely to happen. But thats just some ones oppinion. If tuther bloke dont think so, Col regs is bolaxed.

 

[l'escargot]

...However in reality I'd probably aim to stay well away regardless - for me that's quite easy as I'm nowhere near the big ports...

Your reality is different from some of us. On a summers weekend I will encounter a chain ferry, a car ferry, a fast cat and somewhere in the region of 30 to 50 pleasure yachts/motorboats just to get out the river at Cowes and into the Solent.

Then depending on where I am going there will be more car ferries, fast cats, hovercraft, perhaps naval shipping, cruise ships/tankers/car transporters in rows and certainly more sundry leisure yachts/motorboats of every size and heading all points of the compass.

If you stay well away round here you will never leave the pontoon. Knowing how and when to apply colregs (and local regulations) is the key to survival!

 

[rbcoomer]

I can sympathise with the idea that for a novice to boating there seems to be an awful lot to learn, and that you will pick up more as you go along.

But I find it hard to believe that when you first started driving you relied on "instinct" to tell you which side of the road to drive on, not to blunder straight onto roundabouts without giving way to traffic already on the roundabout, or that you have to stop at red traffic lights?

The collision regulations are a lot simpler than the road traffic acts, the official text is very widely available (and in plain english) and there are plenty of books available for anyone who wants a user-friendly explanation. And if you really must, there are even books that will spoon-feed you with dumbed-down extracts that paraphrase the most important rules.

But please don't be misled by the idea that the colregs are optional, that they don't apply to us, or that we can pick and choose which ones we obey and which ones we can ignore when it suits us.

I understand what you are trying to say, but driving is very different. Learners are not permitted on motorways whereas a 12' boat can wander across a shipping lane and there are no clear give way or stop markings (They are more discretionary depending on speed, distance etc). There are also no lanes and that is significant - if we only had traffic lanes at the entrances to car parks and everywhere else was plain black tarmac then it would be equally contentious!

It's also fair to say that many vessels on the water - particularly leisure craft - are not simply traveling from A to B, but perhaps have other objectives. Are you saying that in busy waters you can never turn to port simply because there are always other vessels within a couple of miles? At high season where I am there are times where there could be 100's of vessels in a couple of square miles (e.g. Dartmouth Regatta) - very few passing through. Taking colregs to the extreme they'd all go in circles and thus there comes a point where being alert, slowing down and being courteous can be much more effective. I'd still agree that rules are there to follow, but just not at all costs and sense/discretion has to prevail at some stage. When, like me, you have little experience you tend to avoid such events, but that still doesn't mean that everyone there follows the rules and too many boats in close proximity make them increasingly harder to apply.

Apologies to those who are bored for fueling the thread. I have to say I do find this topic fascinating and it never seems to run out of steam! I'm going to aim to get some video footage this summer and study the actions of others to see who does what... It could be as educational as watching people trying to park at supermarkets. (Sorry, shouldn't admit to that pastime!)

 

[rbcoomer]

Your reality is different from some of us. On a summers weekend I will encounter a chain ferry, a car ferry, a fast cat and somewhere in the region of 30 to 50 pleasure yachts/motorboats just to get out the river at Cowes and into the Solent.

Then depending on where I am going there will be more car ferries, fast cats, hovercraft, perhaps naval shipping, cruise ships/tankers/car transporters in rows and certainly more sundry leisure yachts/motorboats of every size and heading all points of the compass.

If you stay well away round here you will never leave the pontoon. Knowing how and when to apply colregs (and local regulations) is the key to survival!

There are places nearby that are like that for me too (Plymouth for example) - I just won't venture there until my skills have reached a level that I'm comfortable to do so (about 2050 now that I've been reading these threads ). I guess I'm lucky to have the chance to select waters that suit my abilities and work my way up.

 

[hlb]

I'm back to my old oppinion, that boat jurnalists, never had money to have a boat. I'm not faulting them for that, it's just a fact. I]ve had MBY jurnalists met me in Plymouth. Hardly ever been on a boat.

 

[MapisM]

Common sense

The trouble with "common sense" is that it isn't: sense isn't common, and what is common isn't sense.

Since I'm the one who mentioned common sense in this thread, you obviously think I'm senseless.
Fairenuff, that's a respectable opinion of yours.

But as it happens, I cruised for a decade a very busy stretch of sea where typically the commercial routes cross the pleasure boats routes: the Trieste Gulf.
And believe me, NO pleasure boater (neither stinkies nor raggies) around there would even consider rule 17 when on a collision course with any stuff measured in tens of thousand tons.
All of them simply give way, no matter what.
Now, I've never heard of collisions between ships and pleasure boats in that area.

So, maybe you have all the sense which isn't common, and the above common behaviour isn't sense, but I'll gladly stay with the common and senseless crowd, thank you.

I'd just be grateful if you could tell me of any future plans you might have of cruising that area. I still have a few friends around there who would be happy to be around with some cameras, while you stand on against a 200m+ Ro-Ro ferry doing 20 odd knots.

 

[timbartlett]

All of them simply give way, no matter what.

OK. Let's look at what this incredibly complicated, stupid and suicidal rule actually says:-

Rule 17
Action by stand-on vessel
(a) (i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall keep her course and speed.
(ii) The latter vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her manoeuvre alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules.
(b) When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.
(c) A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in accordance with sub-paragraph (a)(ii) of this Rule to avoid collision with another power-driven vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side.
(d) This Rule does not relieve the give-way vessel of her obligation to keep out of the way.

(a) (i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall keep her course and speed.
In other words, if someone is required to keep out of your way, you are required to behave in a predictable fashion -- because a large, relatively unmanoeuvrable vessel cannot be expected to avoid something that is darting around in an unpredictable fashion.

(ii) The latter vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her manoeuvre alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules.
But if it is obviously going wrong, and the give way vessel hasn't seen you, or is unable to conform to the rules, or even if they can't be bothered, you are not bound to hang on until a collision becomes inevitable

(b) When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.
In fact, if the give way vessel has left it so late that it cannot possibly avoid a collision, then the stand-on vessel is required to do something about it. The guy who stands on out of pure bloody-mindedness is just as wrong as the one who bottles out early!

(c) A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in accordance with sub-paragraph (a)(ii) of this Rule to avoid collision with another power-driven vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side
In case the other guy suddenly wakes up to what is going on and takes action very late, try not to make matters worse by turning into the space that he is likely to be turning into.

(d) This Rule does not relieve the give-way vessel of her obligation to keep out of the way.
It doesn't matter how big or clever he is: if the give way vessel bullies the stand-on vessel into avoiding action, he is still in the wrong.

I don't see anything in there that is complicated, stupid, or dangerous.
I see a rule that is designed to make it as easy as possible for two vessels to avoid each other, which includes a last-resort line of defence in case things go badly wrong, and which has worked very well for generations of professionals in boats of every shape, size, and motive power, for 120 years.
Perhaps you could point out the dangerous bit to me.

What I do not see -- in this rule or anywhere else -- is anything that says "this rule is optional", or "this rule only applies to professionals" or "this rule only applies to vessels over a certain size" or even "this rule doesn't apply in the Solent or the Gulf of Trieste". Maybe you can point them out to me. But please, not rule 2. Rule 2 says you must obey the rules except in special circumstances. "Special circumstances" does not mean "every time a small boat meets a vessel that is bigger than it is"

 

[MapisM]

What I do not see -- in this rule or anywhere else -- is anything that says "this rule is optional", or "this rule only applies to professionals" or "this rule only applies to vessels over a certain size" or even "this rule doesn't apply in the Solent or the Gulf of Trieste".

Tim, what you really do not want to see is the reality, plain and simple.
Which is, pleasure boaters give way to ships. And shipmasters expect them to do so.
Say what you wish, you won't change the reality, period.

PS: I must also inform you that in real world the typical course alteration of a supposedly "stand on" pleasure boat is steering to port.
But please, don't bother explaining why that's wrong.
I'm talking of reality: just take note if you're interested, or continue to ignore it if you prefer.

 

[DAKA]

I'm back to my old oppinion, that boat jurnalists, never had money to have a boat. I'm not faulting them for that, it's just a fact. I]ve had MBY jurnalists met me in Plymouth. Hardly ever been on a boat.

I sincerely hope the ones I have just wasted 2 days arguing with on scuttleburks about standing on to the death have actually got some sort of experience beyond dinghy racing in Chichester .

(and they had the cheek to scream troll at me )


well summarised MapisM , sounds like you tend to helm round the rear of the ships too, Im sure most pleasure boat owners concur is the safest option, but lets see what the keyboard skippers have to say.

 

[gjgm]

Tim, what you really do not want to see is the reality, plain and simple.
Which is, pleasure boaters give way to ships. And shipmasters expect them to do so.
Say what you wish, you won't change the reality, period.

PS: I must also inform you that in real world the typical course alteration of a supposedly "stand on" pleasure boat is steering to port.
But please, don't bother explaining why that's wrong.
I'm talking of reality: just take note if you're interested, or continue to ignore it if you prefer.

PS: I must also inform you that in real world the typical course alteration of a supposedly "stand on" pleasure boat is steering to port.
Why do you say that is the typical alteration.. because most people will try to turn behind?
Tim -if common practice for some situations is not to follow the collregs, then surely the collregs need reconsidering.Not much point in regulations that people dont follow,and I'm not convinced waving a book saying " it says so in here" gets us very far.
Given the seas dont seem full of run down pleasure craft, it seems that pleasure craft skippers have worked out what actually works out there on the blue stuff, more so perhaps than a rule book.

 

[hlb]

I sincerely hope the ones I have just wasted 2 days arguing with on scuttleburks about standing on to the death have actually got some sort of experience beyond dinghy racing in Chichester .

.

You daft bugger, what made you think that!

If they had any sense, they would not have spent there whole life writting about it.

Would they?

 

[MapisM]

Why do you say that is the typical alteration.. because most people will try to turn behind?

Precisely.

 

[DAKA]

You daft bugger, what made you think that!

If they had any sense, they would not have spent there whole life writting about it.

Would they?

Its the threat of compulsory training/brain washing that has me quaking in my boots, what are they planning ?
Placing a machine gun tower on Bramble Bank then setting us off from Hamble in RYA pram dinghies for Cowes......

" DAKA you vil stand on or you vil be SHOT "

Its not always that simple is it

 

[gjgm]

Precisely.

Yes, and its a good illustration of the limitations of collregs.
There is sense that if you are so close you really might hit, steering away from the oncoming vessel will probably minimise the crash compared to into/towards it, but I agree in many situations where a collisions isnt imminent,turning behind is what many people will want to do.

 

[gjgm]

Its the threat of compulsory training/brain washing that has me quaking in my boots, what are they planning ?
Placing a machine gun tower on Bramble Bank then setting us off from Hamble in RYA pram dinghies for Cowes......

" DAKA you vil stand on or you vil be SHOT "

Time to change boat DAKA,
DIVE DIVE DIVE> Must solve alot of these problems

 

[webcraft]

Tim, what you really do not want to see is the reality, plain and simple.
Which is, pleasure boaters give way to ships. And shipmasters expect them to do so.
Say what you wish, you won't change the reality, period.

PS: I must also inform you that in real world the typical course alteration of a supposedly "stand on" pleasure boat is steering to port.
But please, don't bother explaining why that's wrong.
I'm talking of reality: just take note if you're interested, or continue to ignore it if you prefer.

I shan't be coming back here to read your reply as the fumes on here make me feel sick, but I have to say that if you really believe this drivel - especially the bit about the preferred course alteration being to port - then it is about time that there was compulsory licensing for all MoBo drivers, with policing and spot fines for drivers who think they know better than everyone else. You are a menace.

- W

 

[DougH]

I shan't be coming back here to read your reply as the fumes on here make me feel sick,

- W

oooooo Betty