Do we need the RNLI?

Interesting point - except I might ask why the officers on the bridge of the of the French ship working in the channel that I was on a little while ago say that in the event of an emergency they would far rather call the UK Coastguard service and the RNLI than the 'French agencies'? It wasn't on cost grounds either, but on the prompt, efficient and professional response that they knew that they would get. They were particularly impressed by the co-ordinated helicopter/lifeboat/inshore coverage.

I am not suggesting that the French Lifeboats don't do a good job - just stating their preference as given unsolicited to me!
 
Re: Do we need the RNLI? Of course - every country with a shore line .

The RNLI goes back a long way ... and is easliy seen as based on a seafaring nation. Not so long ago most things were private or funded by various organisations / groups / companies etc.
The RNLI has built into an organisation that covers so many aspects of shore-line / coastal and offshore incidents. Many being holidaymakers, stranded kids etc. as well as Commercial shipping and yachts...

The RNLI consistently resists and refuses to consider official funding and take over by any agency or interest - as they put it - to ensure control and finance is where it should be - at the sticky end.

I have had the benefit of RNLI assistance - neither requested by me - but supplied on others advising CG of my circumstances etc. I was very glad of the "training" as the guys put it ...

I have heard many good stories about French LifeBoat service .... so I do not think that there is any call for comments about lack of service on their part - but if a compulsory charge is made - then I am sure many boaters etc. will think twice about calling ...

I admire the RNLI ..... I could never do half what they do ... imagine turning out as they do ????

Last point - I find it hard to generalise that Yotties being ricxh boat owners are subsidised by donations ??? OK of course there are some real rich ones out there - but most are normal people trying to enjoy a bit of life and have scrimped and saved ... gone without other things to have their dream ...

Long live RNLI ........
 
Re: Do we need the RNLI? Of course - every country with a shore line .

>>>
The point I am failing to make is that anyone who chooses to own a boat is not poor - not in Somalia - Eritrea etc meaning of the word - there is sufficient disposable income to have a hobby - with disposable income. This hobby has a rescue service which is paid for to some extent by people with pretty romantic notions of 'the sea'.
>>>

So, sell your boat and give the money to a charity dispensing aid in Eritrea? That is the logical course of action from the above. Like many others on this forum I donate as an Offshore member and put spare £ in the collection box at boat jumbles or what have you. I'e never used the service and never want to. The RNLI are a shining example of how a charity performs when run well. My father, who is very involved with aid charities working in India, often quotes the RNLI as an example of best practice in charity work. Perhaps the NHS should go that way!
 
Re: Do we need the RNLI? Of course - every country with a shore line .

I too think the RNLI do an excellent job. A charity? I think not in this day and age - I can see no earthly reason why people in boats should contribute nothing to the recovery of their vessel when they get into trouble.. (I am aware that a contribution to the RNLI is encouraged if get rescued by them but I bet it is seldom the cost of a commercial tow)

Life saving is different - there are international laws that require all vessels in the area to stand by and to render assistance - Without charge - no problem with that.

When we choose,'choose' to go to sea in our boats or sailboard or dinghys and get into a non life threatening muddle/breakdown (80% of RNLI shouts) we have a 'breakdown service to call that costs nothing and is a registered charity with donations from many people who go no where near the sea.

Possibly if you call out a breakdown service you should pay for it - not expect charity.
 
Re: Do we need the RNLI? Of course - every country with a shore line .

But the question originally was should the RNLI be a charity, or a business who charges for its services?

Picture this, a non-boat owning family, mid August and have decided to take the children to the beach for the weekend. They buy a small inflatable boat, the kids get in it and get pulled out to sea by the wind and tide.

Coast Guard get called, they request the launch of the many life boat stations (not all RNLI) to assist with a search.

That family by that point have taken the resources of the Coast Guard, and possibly two or more life boats and countless staff.

Now in this original arguement, boat owners are rich (apparently) and everyone else isn't, so this family is part of everyone else.

The RNLI and Coast Guard charge the family for the services they required to recover their children - could they afford this charge?

If the RNLI was made to change, it would put the volunteers in an awful position, pay up else we won't launch - these people volunteer to help, they don't judge people.

The family might wait longer before calling for help.

Keep the RNLI the way it is IMHO. Changing it would rouine the whole system, and equally if the government had to run its own rescue service we'd all have to pay an awful lot more in tax - which would then mean the poor who don't have money to put in collection jars would then be paying for boat owners and holiday makers.
 
Re: Do we need the RNLI? Of course - every country with a shore line .

[ QUOTE ]
I too think the RNLI do an excellent job. A charity? I think not in this day and age - I can see no earthly reason why people in boats should contribute nothing to the recovery of their vessel when they get into trouble..

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you define some examples of trouble?

I think the point you are trying to get to is should people use the RNLI as a breakdown service?

Absolutely not.

Are people using the RNLI as a free breakdown service?

Possibly, and thats got to be stopped. But who should decide if its a breakdown or real emergency. If the RNLI chose not to launch as they felt it was simply a breakdown, and then the boat ended up on the rocks, who would be blamed?

This is not the RNLI's fault, the wider boating community needs to train people better and make calling the RNLI for a simple breakdown a real taboo.
 
??? he said it wasnt what ??

I said the use of the rnli is free (akka no charges are levied or made to anyone), whilst he french rescue agency charges (demands payment - for commercial shipping, which is the basis of my comment) /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Another common mistake ...

We ALL mention calling out the RNLI .....

Having been at the receiving end of RNLI assistance twice .... both times were at the insistence of CG who had been advised by others ... who viewed my predicaments as urgent for help.

It is not normal for a yacht / person etc. to call RNLI direct .... it is normally via the CG and the CG in one of my occasions actually questioned me via VHF as to incident, any damage, quite a lot of info actually with advice and comment to aid me while waiting for the LB to arrive ...
I in fact did not call for the LB - I advised CG of circumstances - THEY decided LB was required .... and later LB did say they liked to do it for training ....

The second one involving pre-rescue discussion was very interesting and pity that it could not have been filmed ....

I was bouncing hard on Bembridge sands just off from the Fort in a rising gale .... forestay had parted, genny unfurled and horizontal from mastehead, halyards etc. brought down to deck to stop mast breaking, stbd crosstree snapped off .... engine dead etc. etc. We had anchor out and were trying desperately to drag the genny in via the furling line - my mate still has hands with marks from the super effort put into it. LB arrived but couldn't approach as he was touching bottom ... so he fired rocket line over with towing hauser attached etc. He towed us off on a long reach ... probably about 60m or more tow length .... then started realing us in as he turned to bring us into Bembridge Hbr. With the gale and conditions he ran aground ... my tow was down to about 5m approx by then and boat ran into stbd 1/4 of LB ... no way could it be avoided .... Cox ordered my bota put to side tow to prevent it happening again ... we finally entered hbr - they manoeuvred me alongside and we all had a discussion after for their notes etc. Donations even though a Gvnr was made etc. as I would always do ....
 
Re: Another common mistake ...

I was in the Straight of Gibraltar a while ago and heard a catamaran in trouble in the overfall's where John Noaks (blue peter) lost his boat.
The (English?) cat put out a may day on 16. Immediately Spanish CC came back and ascertained exact position and situation. The CC then said:-

We will send a rescue craft to get you immediately at no cost to you but it cannot tow the boat.
If you want the boat towed then I will arrange a commercial tow from a tug and let you know the costs.

The French work a similar system I think - live saving is free of charge - towing vessels may be done by French Navy or Coast Guards or commercial vessels but they all charge a commercial rate.

In fact early in my sailing career I lost a rudder near Cape de La Hague in a bit of a blow - The UK CC called in the French as I was close to them. I got towed for 14 hours into Cherbourg and received a bill for £14,000 pounds (more than the value of the boat) which I passed to my insurers who negotiated it down to £1400. The insurers argued lives were at risk and I had asked the Frigate to take my wife off but they would not as the Captain considered the transfer too dangerous....

Now I do not think the charge unreasonable. Rotten brand new 25ft boat - rudder fell off! YM did an article about it - must put it on the web site...
 
Re: Another common mistake ...

[ QUOTE ]
We will send a rescue craft to get you immediately at no cost to you but it cannot tow the boat.
If you want the boat towed then I will arrange a commercial tow from a tug and let you know the costs.

[/ QUOTE ]
So the skipper is in an immeadiate quandary ... do you accept the free "life saving" lift off or wait to find out what the charge for a tow is.... now, if the boat is sinking or likely to disappear under the waves then it is a no-brainer ... but what if the boat itself is not in any immeadiate danger but just disabled? Will the insurance company cover you or will you loose the lot?
A pay-per-incident charging system is a loose/loose/loose situation for The Skipper, The insurance Co & the RNLI ...

The Skipper - will have to pay higher insurance premiums as the insurance company get more claims for commercial tows

The Insurance Company - will have more claims to deal with (ok they won't loose then)

The RNLI - will then have a financial burden if anything goes wrong with the tow and the insurance company claim against them
 
Re: Another common mistake ...

Interesting point - when faced with a salvage rather than rescue situation, the lifeboat crew are entitled to charge the owner of the vessel. If they do so they have to reimburse the RNLI by paying a charter fee for use of the lifeboat. (I have never heard of a crew taking that course however).
 
Re: Another common mistake ...

[ QUOTE ]
Thank God I sail in UK waters.

How can you possibly think these illustrate a preferable system? I am lost for words.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not saying it is better for yacht crews but I am saying that the charitable status of the RNLI is very suspect. At the moment rescues are paid for by charitable donations from all over the country - little old ladies rather than by solely by the people who use the service. Charity is Somalia and Save the Children and Medicines sans Frontiers - I think?

The concept that others will pay for our mistakes is wrong. British yachts persons are wrapped in the cotton wool security that the RNLI will get them into the office on Monday if things go pear shaped over the weekend.
 
Re: Another common mistake ...

[ QUOTE ]

At the moment rescues are paid for by charitable donations from all over the country - little old ladies rather than by solely by the people who use the service.

[/ QUOTE ]
Over the years I have donated to Guide Dogs for the Blind, Hospices, Cancer Charities, ...

I am neither blind, in need of a hospice (yet), and am fortunate to be in very good health. What has personal need for a service got to do with which charity you choose to support?? And why should a charity have to operate on donations from only those people who intend to use their services??

TLOM
 
Re: Another common mistake ...

[ QUOTE ]
little old ladies

[/ QUOTE ]
Little old ladies who love the sea and wish to see anyone on it return safely ... possibly with family & friends who go to sea. Why should they not give if they want to?

Are you suggesting the only charities should be for the "larger" problematic areas like Somalia? ... There are thousands of organisations with charitable status, run for the greater good of their chosen area,

Definition of "charity"
1. Provision of help or relief to the poor; almsgiving.
2. Something given to help the needy; alms.
3. An institution, organization, or fund established to help the needy.
4. Benevolence or generosity toward others or toward humanity.
5. Indulgence or forbearance in judging others. See Synonyms at mercy.
6. often Charity Christianity. The theological virtue defined as love directed first toward God but also toward oneself and one's neighbors as objects of God's love.

I think the RNLI quite happily sits under 4, and perhaps 3 as well.

Going back to Somalia and the like ... under your ideal - where "rich" yachtsmen should pay for a tow back, anyone receiving any sort of support that isn't life saving should pay ... at what point do you draw the line? Should those not on the brink of death pay for the food/water/blankets etc etc they receive from charities?

What about those charities whose aim it is to improve the standard of life for disadvantaged children? They don't need a good holiday to stay alive, but they are a lot better off afterwards for doing so? So should they (or their parents) have to pay for it? Something they might not be able to afford ...

I'll draw you back to definition 4. Benevolence or generosity towards others or toward humanity ... in whatever shape or form, life giving, life improving, life changing etc etc etc ...
 
Re: Another common mistake ...

One last attempt at rational response.

[ QUOTE ]
the charitable status of the RNLI is very suspect.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is nothing suspect aboout their charitable status. They conform to and comply with all the legal requirements set out. They are a charity. Full stop. No dispute.

[ QUOTE ]
Charity is Somalia and Save the Children and Medicines sans Frontiers

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but not exclusively so. There are many others that wouldn't comply with your narrow view of suitability. But they exist and have every right to. Nobody forces anyone to contribute. It is our choice. It's called free will.

[ QUOTE ]
The concept that others will pay for our mistakes is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

So goodbye NHS along with any charity that supports anyone injured or ill because they have done something risky or stupid in their lives. I don't thik so. The social fabric of this society is stitched together with thread of charitable giving, voluntary work and free treatment irrespective of cause. We would be in a fearful mess without it.

[ QUOTE ]
cotton wool security that the RNLI will get them into the office on Monday if things go pear shaped over the weekend.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a matter for the RNLI and the rest of the boating community. If that becomes a problem of such proportions that it affects their ability to provide service to those genuinely in need I'm sure they will take appropriate action and will receive the overwhelming support of the vast majority of users of our waters.

Why would you want to destroy one of the most successful organisations in the world just because a few idiots abuse it? It makes no sense.
 
Re: Another common mistake ...

[ QUOTE ]
The concept that others will pay for our mistakes is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
You could argue that the current state of the 3rd world is of their own doing as they could have developed in exactly the same way the richer nations could have ... but just never did - so why should we pay for their (ansestors) mistakes?
 
Re: Another common mistake ...

I have read this thread with interest and note the number of sensible points made. In conclusion I think you are coming at this from a warped perspective that you believe that donations to the RNLI are preventing donations to other causes that you would prefer to see supported. I do not believe this is the case and as any donation is voluntary you seem to want to remove peoples free choice.

This thread has made me feel I should become a member in addition to my current annual subscription to sea start and occasional donations!

With the information posted on here I think it may be better to agree that it appears that no any other country has a better system and the RNLI is perhaps the one of the last remaining things that the UK is best in!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top