Do we need the RNLI?

Re: Another common mistake ...

This whole thread makes me want to raise more money for the RNLI now. There are still some good things within the UK!
 
Fact is not so good as fiction ...

Quote << Charity is Somalia and Save the Children and Medicines sans Frontiers - I think?>>

Having been to some of these poverty stricken places East and West Africa, North etc. - I can honestly say there is a big difference :

RNLI does not rent offices and apartments in town centres most expensive lots.
RNLI does not run round in V8 Petrol Land-Cruisers using up more fuel in one day than the weeks cooking fuel req'ts of a family.
RNLI does not sit around hotels bars and foyers clapping each other on the back - praising each other for another fine job NOT done...

The list goes on ....

I am NOT exaggerating .... Fact - seen it and heard it with my own eyes and ears .....

The worst I saw was Luanda and out of town .... going through to Cabinda .... war torn, minefields etc ... starving kids where gangs held villages to ransom etc. Where were all the UN Relief guys ...... read above .....

Sorry I see money get wisely spent and go to where it does benefit .... RNLI.

Now before you start on me as NOT giving to Somalia, Rwanda etc. - having worked out there and seen where money usually ends up - along with food etc. - I STILL GIVE MY bit to charity out there - even if only a part reaches that childs mouth - its better than nothing.

Sorry but the two arenas are distinctly different and should not be in same post ......

Next you'll be telling us RSPCA should be a Govt body .... !!
 
Re: Fact is not so good as fiction ...

Definition of "charity"
1. Provision of help or relief to the poor; alms giving.
2. Something given to help the needy; alms.
3. An institution, organization, or fund established to help the needy.
4. Benevolence or generosity toward others or toward humanity.
5. Indulgence or forbearance in judging others. See Synonyms at mercy.
6. often Charity Christianity. The theological virtue defined as love directed first toward God but also toward oneself and one's neighbours as objects of God's love.

I think the RNLI quite happily sits under 4, and perhaps 3 as well.

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This post reasonably sums up the position of many in this forum I think?

It may have been true 50 or 100 years ago but hey guys - who is out there being rescued? You guys and girls - people who are playing boats - very few fishermen, very few merchant men - and if it is serious then the air force. CC, commercial tugs and RN are quickly involved as well as the excellent 'charity' RNLI....

I just think that that if you want to go out there being the ancient mariner -or Hiscock or Chichester or Nelson then you should do it without resorting to charity if the brown stuff hits the fan.... If you have enough money to go sailing then you have enough to finance your own rescue.
Be brave not reliant on a 'charity' that is no longer appropriate perhaps?
 
think you got post and poster mixed up there ..........

I never posted the list of definitions ..... !!
 
Re: think you got post and poster mixed up there ..........

hey captain perhaps france should sort out here own problems before getting onto a soap box to sort out some one else`e
and try reading your emails /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Re: Yes.

I entirely agree with the thrust of your post - but after 22 years in the grey Funnel Line I don't entirely share the general veneration for the Armed forces. Generally the individuals are the salt of the earth, but the organisations share the characteristics of the rest of the government. The parallels between the losses of HMS VICTORIA in 1893 and HMS FITTLETON thirty-odd years ago are chilling.
 
Re: think you got post and poster mixed up there ..........

I posted the defs ... as found on the internet ... just go to a dictionary ... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Mike, I don't think anyone on here disagrees with you that the RNLI (or more acuratly the CG) should be the last call (was it Tome who replaced a water pump impellor whilst sailing towards Portsmouth Harbour?), but I think the difficulty is in your belief that the boaters should directly pay for each tow (rescues are free!).

1) When does an incident change from a breakdown tow into a lifesaving rescue?
2) Who pays for the vessels left stranded but perfectly servicable when all crew are removed during lifesaving?
3) Who decides if it is going to be a tow or a rescue?
4) Does a rescue mean the removal of all persons or just those that want to get off?
5) If your paying for a tow, who is liable if the tow goes wrong and as a result more damage is caused
6) If the RNLI are funded by these salvage missions then where does the rest of their money come from?
7) What happens if you can't afford to pay (tow home = £14k, boat worth = £10k)
8) Do the RNLI have volunteers for rescues and paid hands for salvage?
9) What if you call for a tow and then fix your problem, is there a callout charge?

The RNLI works, it has proven itself to be one of the best (if not THE best) Lifeboat services in the world. They have a proven funding model and do not rely on handouts from the government. Other nations send their bods HERE to train.

I recently watched a programme on American coastguards and their rescues - it was dreadfull - and they are paid crew, and that is their job.....

So Mike, I can see where your comming from, routine breakdowns etc etc - should you really need to call for assistance, but if I needed to have a £10k fund sitting there just incase I needed a tow back I wouldn't be able to afford to go sailing at all .... turning sailing into an elitest sport that only the wealthy can afford, exactly what the RYA is trying to get it away from.....
 
Re: think you got post and poster mixed up there ..........

Grave and Imminent Danger to a Person, Ship, Aircraft or Other Vehicle Requiring Immediate Assistance


Any delay in receiving a distress alert can mean the difference
between rescuing survivors and recovering  bodies

Its simple that what the RNLI is about /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: think you got post and poster mixed up there ..........

Fireball thank you for the reasoned post - Would just say you shouldn't believe all you see on TV - The US CC are a pretty effective force.

I am not saying the RNLI is not good at what it does - I am saying that I have problems with it's 'Charitable' status and I do think UK boat people are pretty mollycoddled with the concept that someone else will pay for their rescue so they can get to the office on Monday...

I have tried to answer you specific points sensibly despite some excellent Merlot!

1) When does an incident change from a breakdown tow into a lifesaving rescue?

When there is a clear and present danger to the life of the crew.....


2) Who pays for the vessels left stranded but perfectly servicable when all crew are removed during lifesaving?

If the vessel is stranded and perfectly serviceable why do they all want to get off?


3) Who decides if it is going to be a tow or a rescue?

The Skipper/captain of the vessel in distress - he shouts to be taken off or towed in.. (unless his wife/partner feels otherwise!) Difference between a Mayday and a Pan Pan..


4) Does a rescue mean the removal of all persons or just those that want to get off?

The Skipper/Captain is the last person to leave a vessel..... His decision.


5) If your paying for a tow, who is liable if the tow goes wrong and as a result more damage is caused.

This is covered by the standard 'no cure no pay contract for these situations.


6) If the RNLI are funded by these salvage missions then where does the rest of their money come from?

It becomes a commercial organisation - except for life saving if you want help you join - works in the USA.


7) What happens if you can't afford to pay (tow home = £14k, boat worth = £10k)

Happened to me years ago - most of us carry insurance - the insurers will work out this problem as they did for me.


8) Do the RNLI have volunteers for rescues and paid hands for salvage?

Do not really see why the volunteer system has to change. Some are very glad of the call out fee they are paid. Market forces and a nice little part time earner.


9) What if you call for a tow and then fix your problem, is there a call out charge?

Then you should be more competent - I suspect it would concentrate the mind of skippers who just reach for the VHF... Getting help is either a commercial proposition or there is a clear and present danger to life...


Is it right that the wider public support an organisation that spends 99% of its time helping people who own boats?

Not sure!
 
Re: think you got post and poster mixed up there ..........

[ QUOTE ]
Is it right that the wider public support an organisation that spends 99% of its time helping people who own boats?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. If they (the wider public)want to.

However your question still implies that the majority of those helped by the RNLI actually own boats (and are therefore well-off and/or insured) and as has been pointed out by many previos contributors to this thread, this is not the case.
 
Re: do yot racers take this for granted ?

nyacht09.jpg


British and French rescuers yesterday saved four sailors whose two trimarans capsized in fierce winds and rough seas during a transatlantic race.

A French helicopter winched the sailors to safety from life rafts, which had been dropped by an RAF Nimrod plane. The men had earlier spent several hours clinging to their vessels 250 miles off the Isles of Scilly.


The yacht Foncia capsized while in second place in the race
The two-man Swiss crew of Orange Project, Steve Ravussin and his brother Yvan, fired a distress beacon when it capsized at about 3am. Both men were clinging to the overturned hull when the Nimrod flew over.

The plane dropped a self-inflating life raft near the stricken yacht. An RAF spokesman said: "This was a very tricky rescue operation as it was a truly awful storm.

"It is also an amazing story of survival for these sailors who spent six hours clinging to their vessels in the freezing waters of the Atlantic.

"These four guys are going home to their families when the outcome could have been very different if it had not been for the international rescue operation."

Four hours after Orange Project capsized, the 60ft Foncia set off a distress beacon. It capsized when in second place.

The Irish co-skipper, Damian Foxall, was said to have injured his ribs, and had a suspected broken collarbone.

A French rescue helicopter had to refuel on the Jeanne d'Arc, an aircraft carrier, as the two trimarans were beyond its range, 220 miles from the French coast.

Shortly after noon, more than four hours after Foncia capsized, a diver on board the helicopter lifted Mr Foxall to safety. He then picked up Foncia's co-skipper Armel Le Cleac'h.

The helicopter then flew to Orange Project and winched the two Swiss sailors to safety.

The trimarans were competing against 32 other boats in the Transat Jacques Vabre race between Le Havre and Salvador de Bahia in Brazil.

A third trimaran, Sodebo, which lost its mast about 170 miles off the Isles of Scilly, was towed to safety by a French fishing vessel.

Sodebo's skipper, Thomas Coville, said: "The seas were immense. A huge wave suddenly slammed violently into the boat and the port float opened up in two right in the middle. We fought to get the boat facing downwind, to be less exposed. But the mast fell down, breaking the beam and smashing on the leeward float.

"The fishing boat which is towing us was close, on standby. So they came alongside very quickly."

A coastguard spokesman said weather conditions had been "absolutely atrocious", with 70mph winds.

The British yachtswoman, Ellen MacArthur, who was taking part in the race, passed through the area on Monday and was among the leading boats. She set off on Saturday in the Sill et Veolia and was expected to take 16 days to complete the race.

First held in 1983, the 4,340-mile race is renowned for its diverse weather.

/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Re: think you got post and poster mixed up there ..........

from Powerskip
[ QUOTE ]
Any delay in receiving a distress alert can mean the difference between rescuing survivors and recovering bodies

[/ QUOTE ]

from you
[ QUOTE ]
I suspect it would concentrate the mind of skippers who just reach for the VHF... Getting help is either a commercial proposition or there is a clear and present danger to life...

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike, I think your making the situation too black and white ... so ... here's another senario for you ...
You doing a Channel hop - simple run from Dartmouth to the Channel Islands, taking you close to or through the traffic seperation scheme. There is no wind (so sails are no good) and your motoring - part way across the TSS your prop becomes fouled.
I believe my current actions would be to 1) Put out a PANPAN 2) Try and clear the prop 3) call for assistance if I can't do it
If it was going to cost for a tow then would it be 1) Put out a PANPAN (let everyone know your there) 2) try and clear the prop, try and clear the prop, try and clear the prop 3) Give up and drift with the tide praying for wind and lack of big boats that will mow you down, because even if you do call for assistance you'll only get removed from your vessel (still perfectly servicable) whereas if you can just sit there for 12hrs the wind should pickup ....

There are times when a Mayday call is definatley required
There are times when assistance is not really required
There are plenty of grey areas where the CG currently decide to call out the boys in Orange to come and make sure, just in case. long may they continue to do so.
 
Re: think you got post and poster mixed up there ..........

Good point Eloise: A minor breakdown can very rapidly turn into a major emergency at sea - the ship can sink for want of a split pin. So who is to decide when an emergency is not an emergency - even if it is entirely the fault of the casualty's ignorance or stupidity?

The one occasion when I had a problem that was attended by a lifeboat honestly seemed to me to be a minor incident: a badly fouled prop which I as a single hander had been unable to clear. All I though I needed was a tow in so that i could beach the boat and finish the job properly.

However, because I was single handed, because I had had to enter the water, and because i had been unable to extricate myself, HMCG and RNLI took the situation very seriously, and later explained why. As far as they were concerned it was a serious emergency because I had no one to assist me while I was in the water. Had I been unable to return aboard for any reason, the result could be (and on a similar recent occasion had been) fatal.
 
Tom .... last one I got from you ....

Was about measuring keels ...... nothing else ....

Quote :>>Nigel on the plan on the moody page for the 34 it gives a lot of info but i cannot find any were what the messure is for...... etc. etc.......

????
 
Quite often = NOT decided by you as to call out ...

A call to CG advising of difficulty can in fact lead to THEM deciding to send out the LB .... this has happened twice to me out of 2 times in difficulty ....
 
Re: think you got post and poster mixed up there ..........

its a 'securite' msg not a panpan - IMHO of course /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Re: think you got post and poster mixed up there ..........

ok ... I wasn't sure ... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif ... not had to call up CG in anger b4 ... just the usual 1/2hrly radio check! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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