do tired old racing style cruisers make sense?

[cumbrian]

I’m edging towards a boat upgrade (am pleased to say good advice has been forthcoming from this forum) and interested in whether “cheaply” priced boats such as such as carter 33, ufo 34, sigma 33, She 31 etc are thought to be reasonable value - or to be avoided like the plague?

Tattiness and general degradation might obviously to be expected (I’m not fussy in this regard) but are there potential significant structural or other important defects that can’t be put right slowly over time…. exploding engine, detaching keel etc…

I know boats are worth what you pay, that’s what a survey is for, there are no guarantees etc – but are there any tales of racers from hell…?

 

[savageseadog]

The thing that lets some of them down is the condition of the foam core hulls and cored decks too. Some of them weren't that strong to begin with. Another area to watch is the quality of fastening of deck fittings it's not unknown for major loads to be held on self tappers! Lastly and not least. these boats are inevitably grounded at speed so you will need to check the keel floors and keel root. Change the standing rigging unless new.

 

[Searush]

They also tend to be built for speed rather than comfort. Can you live with that or is it what you actually yearn for?

Personnally, I am built for comfort & so is my choice of boat.

 

[johnalison]

The trouble with the designs you mention is that they all have short waterlines and fine ends, so are not only slower than their racing pedigree would suggest, but have limited accommodation compared to boats of the last 20 years. They also tend to have poorer motoring qualities and smaller tanks for water/fuel. On the other hand, they are all good sea boats and would be safe in a blow, and with simple masthead rigs.

One or two of them have a reputation for being a handful under spinnaker, as designers got much cleverer at balancing hulls when freed from the current racing rules.

Modern cruisers offer much better accommodation/speed per pound than the old boats did, though I would steer clear of some modern designs with exaggerated beam in the stern, and excessively full sections forward, with inadequate forefoot.

On the other hand, the boats mentioned are all lovely to look at and are classics of their kind, and those of us poncing around in newer craft should be grateful to those who want a labour of love for keeping them going.

 

[brianhumber]

Had a UFO 34 as first yacht with a partner. Built like a brick s''''house. We went all over NE Europe in it and enjoyed sailing alone with my then SHMBO or with the lads. ( 11 on it to Honfleur one sunny Easter) and I upgraded it fairly easily to become coded training boat for my partner when I upgraded to my Barracuda
As others have said rigging, engines etc may need and can be changed but base build structure on these older yachts was good IME.

Brian

 

[Racecruiser]

I guess much is down to what you want to do with the boat - bit of cruising and racing probably fine but I'd avoid those pinched stern old IOR rule inspired boats which roll and broach pretty easily especially under spinnaker.

If cruising and you don't need the accomodation of current boats how about going a bit older? Say a Rustler 31, Rival 31 or bigger, Nich 32 ,mostly long keeled design solidly built and likely to have been re-engined and much loved if you find a good one? Get a good survey though. Or if the budget stretches a Rustler 36 and still in production.

 

[isha]

My IW31, a Swedish variation of the She 31, fits the category described. Whilst there is not an overabundance of space below, it is adequate. Teaches me to be patient when crew sailing with me.On the other hand she sails beautifully. The S&S designed hull looks the business and does the business. Hull strongly built and at 35 years old shows no sign of any deterioration. My experience had taught me that if I want the good sailing ability, I need to put up with less space down below i.e. for a 30 or 31 ft yacht. I must admit to casting an envious eye over newer and more spacious yachts, then I think about the cost and the sailing performance, not speed but the way the boat handles and feels under sail. The lines are all important. Yes, there are scratches and signs of use, but with year in year out maintenance, old yachts are a good buy.
David

 

[cumbrian]

thanks for comments so far. as usual i'm searching for a good sailing spec at low price - but newer boats are out of my price range - as are rival, rusltler and nich32. (by the way - did i mention "tatty") /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

more interested in a good sailing boat than comfort - but space is useful, even if spartan.

to be used for cruising and clumsy racing but probably not for hammering on with a spinnaker in a blow (ufo and sigma?).

>> I'd avoid those pinched stern old IOR rule inspired boats which roll and broach pretty easily <<

do you mean by any chance the boats i mentioned...?!

as david says, good lines and a sense of classic status is a plus. what is an IW31?

 

[jwilson]

Nothing much else gives you the performance of a UFO34 at the price. Fast to windward, not slow offwind but handling gets a bit dubious if driven really hard offwind, but reduce sail and you'll still be going fast enough but under control. Tiller steering is fine on a UFO - personally I'd prefer that to a wheel on a UFO34. Fine ends but big beam so quite a lot of space below anyway.

The even better boat from the same era is the She 36 - but too many people know just how exceptionally good they are so prices are high.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

i'll second the She36.... an exceptional boat..... the only boat i've ever wanted to take out in a F8!!!

On the main subject....

I had a 70's 3/4 tonner, which at 33' fitted the category described.... was great fun to sail, and built like a brick s**t house.....

Looking at the current prices, I think there is a lot to be said for paying them close attention.... just watch out for the really tired ones.

 

[Judders]

I have a twenty five year old cruiser racer. Leaks like a colander. Accommodation in these boats is often better thought out than modern awbs so although they are undoubtedly less spacious they need not be less practical.

 

[isha]

Cumbrian
A IW31 is a Sparkman and Stephens design, like the She 31but down below fitted out fully in wood. The IW31 is a Swedish yacht 30'4" length x 9 beam x 5'5" draft.Fin Keel with large bulb. 5berths, heads, hanging locker, diesel engine, galley, chart table.-standard layout. Keel- stepped mast with mast head rig. Lovely looking boat and a delight to sail.
Weighs about 4tonnnes with high ballast ratio.PM me and I can give more details and photos
Another design which I know is the Pioneer 10. Slightly bigger than the IW31 and with a great pedigree.
David

 

[saltwater_gypsy]

Had a Sigma 33 for 12 years.
Excellent boats and now available at around £18K. The She 36 is up one league entirely but buy the April PBO and go looking for a good 33 and you will not be disappointed.

 

[Aeolus_IV]

I think it all depends on just how old you were thinking about. From my experience looking at sailing yachts the older you go the less racing was perceived as the "primary" or only focus of a yacht and consequently the more suitable it is for a genuinely mixed role of cruising and racing. Mind you, that has to be taken into context (as other have pointed out) in that more modern designs can give more room and speed for a given size of boat, but this often comes in exchange for compromises in other areas (sea keeping or tenderness in other areas).

Many people agree that the older boats look good and sail well (albeit slower than a more modern boat). I think this is generally true. The lack of speed is in part due to older boats tending to have more conservative rigs on them meaning that in light airs they struggle to keep up with AWBs. On the other hand, once it starts blowing they tend to dig in, behave themselves and carry of sailing (though sometimes at the expense of going through waves rather than over them).

Older boats tend to have a simpler approach to fabrication too. In the absence modern CAD tooling and detailed understanding of the materials being used (that new-fangled GRP for instance) many older yachts are perceived to be over engineered, and indeed may well be so. But this primarily means that problems with them are easier to address.

In terms of carrying capacity (water, diesel etc), it seems that when these older boat were designed it was anticipated that people sailed between locations, and the auxiliary engine was not the primary means of getting about. Obviously these days life does not afford people the luxury of waiting for the wind and motoring to the next port is more common. It is perfectly reasonable, if you've a mind, to add additional fuel and water capacity to an older yacht either by just carrying containers of what you feel you need or by building in additional tanks.

I have waffled on.

Buying a boat is a personal thing. I have heard (or read) that you know you have the right boat for you if you cannot resist a final glance over the shoulder as you leave the boat and cannot wait to get back to her. This to me seems to be the most important factor. Buying a boat doesn't make good financial sense, you cannot justify it with the head, it has to be driven from the heart. If an old boat calls out to you, then pretty much everything else can be sorted to make it work acceptably. There will be compromises, everything is a compromise in one way or another.

I think I am qualified to say the above because I have walked this path myself. Aeolus is a '73 Centurion 32 and suffers (or suffered) all of the faults that others have or will warn you about. I have now spent far more on her than I paid buying her. But she ticks my "last glance" criteria every time. So much so, I moved her within the harbour so that I can sit on the club balcony with a beer in my hand and keep an eye on her.

Regards, Jeff.

 

[Bajansailor]

Even tired old Admirals Cuppers make sense, as various owners have found out - a few that come to mind are Loujaine and the Golden and Silver Apples, all of whom were 'converted' for cruising (ok, and a bit of racing...) and then sailed happily across the Atlantic - yet in their previous lives they were state of the art IOR racers.
And I seem to remember they did reasonably ok in local regattas in the Windies (this was 20 odd years ago).

And my favourite (apart from all the Shes) has to be the S & S 34 - apart from being exceedingly pretty, she is poetry in motion and sails like a dream.
OK, she won't fly downwind like a modern wide beam AWB, but she will be steadily and happily plugging away to windward with a nicely balanced helm and a comfortable motion when all hell is breaking loose with the lightweight AWBs sailing on their ear and broaching.

 

[homa]

She 33

As the owner of a 70's cruiser racer (Sparkman & Stevens, She 33).
Most important thing I would say is, be prepared to spend serious money upgrading her. Majority of boats of this age will have tired, worn out gear. Do your homework, some boats of this era were home finished. Also, there were different layouts and specs on a number of designs.
I bought my boat for a song 4 years ago when the £ was strong against the Euro.
Have since replaced the sails, rigging and electronics. And I still think I have a bargain. Main thing for me was the Hull and internals were in good nick and the engine recently replaced.
When Looking for a boat I made a long list of the equipment and a budget of what things might cost to replace. This gave a better idea of the "real" cost of the boat.
If you want to talk further pm me.

 

[cumbrian]

Re: She 33

As ever, the breadth of opinions is helpful. Having the reassurance of a hull that has a reputation for solid build seems important - ditto a reasonable engine. How much of a problem is your colander Judders?

Personally, although I’m happy to swap out easily replaced, knackered equipment over time, I’m not good at adding the final finish (read "won't do it") - e.g. the elbow work of stripping back, re-varnishing, re-furbishing. If it works, it works.In fact I probably prefer the idea of classic-but-faded boat still doing the business amongst the glossy newer ones.

Thanks Aoleus for your background “waffle” – always helpful to folk like me who may be lacking in historical perspective.

The list of potential classics always grows rather than diminishes, but the desirability of some of the boats mentioned makes them rare and (for me at least) pricey. I’m sure I’ll always prefer these older styles of boat – I don’t know why newer designs are so less appealing – maybe just a lack of line? As for age- i'll be reckoning on something clocking on 30 (never realised 1979 was so long ago!)

Budgeting for possible future expenditure is a very good idea – and of course adds discipline to the buying process – which I’m not good at…. too much heart and not enough head. I’ll be sending a couple of PMs…

More thanks
keith

 

[Ceirwan]

Re: She 33

Remember, if you spend the time to do a proper, thorough and extensive refit then you will avoid all the stigma of an older boat because you will have a new one!

Providing the hull is sound, deck leaks, smelly interior, faulty electrical wiring and worn hardware can all be easily fixed.

 

[LeonF]

I remember a surveyor saying that if one bought for eg, a Centaur for £5000 and spent £15,000, then it might still only be worth around the price of the best on the market at the time, which was about 13K at tops.
I suppose if you spent your money well, then you would of course end up with an almost new boat for a lot less than one would cost.
I sometimes wish I had kept my Sigma 33... she pointed well and flew, and like the OP I used her for clumsy club racing as well. The money I lost in brokers fees when I sold her could well have paid for some upgrades to enhance her cruising comfort.. pressurised hot and cold water, a fridge. She was solidly built and in excellent structural condition. However she could be a handful when single handing, so I am glad that I made the switch. Now if I could run to a Breehorn 37......

 

[cumbrian]

good stuff

it seems to boil down to the DESIGN and the HULL. if you have a classic (albeit) shabby boat, its likely that everything will at least _work_ even if not brillianty - e.g. you don't need to rush out and replace all the rigging and sails overnight

and in cash terms this is probably the only way to get your hands on a good boat at a relatively low price

so sigma and ufo still sounding good.

with an apology for drifting into another "which boat" post, dare i ask for views of one versus the other?