Do Not Buy A Besenzoni. Warning

[Portofino]

Any where below the blue line would have been a uneventful job .



Fr tradesmen asking for part payment before is normal and balance usually on completion .Normally 50 % to cover his parts costs from the factory in my experience.There labour laws are pretty prohibiting in the sense it costs the employer around 60 % of a employee s monthly salary in social charges .eg he employs a 2 nd pair of hands for €20 k It costs him an additional €12 k to the Fr gov so going from a one man band to two costs him €32 k .
So if he’s got a small / Med Co with a few vans and lads ( you can,t fit a Passerelle on your own ) you can appreciate his monthly overheads .VAT at 20 % ?or is it more theses days ? is not helping him either cash flow wise .
The charge out rate in France for marine engineers @ a yard is approaching €75to € 80 + VAT per hour .
In Italy they bill you @€30 per hr + tax for the what they call the “ white price “which is recorded on paper .
Use your imagination when they say “ there are two prices , the white price and another price “ Well that’s my experience

 

[petem]

That’s a little bit of a sore point.

I bet it is.

Incidentally, what length of paserelle did you specify? Is it the same as the OEM fitment or a longer one?

Also, what strengthening has been done to the transom to deal with the forces (who specified this)?

 

[pumpsmynads]

So we are still none the wiser as the op gives nil detail.

it is a rather pointless thread

Agreed. We don’t even know the basic facts. Drip feeding bits and pieces across 3 pages. It’s an odd way to communicate. Maybe Besenzoni thought the same

 

[Bouba]

Agreed. We don’t even know the basic facts. Drip feeding bits and pieces across 3 pages. It’s an odd way to communicate. Maybe Besenzoni thought the same

No, I gave Besenzoni all the facts. I need to keep this private because of legal action. After communicating with Besenzoni for a month I have given up begging them.
My problem with the installer could drag on, in the meantime I thought it was my civic duty to not allow another boater to be fooled in this way.
So I will repeat the message, if you go on the Besenzoni website and find an installer do not think for a moment that you are covered by Besenzoni .
I think this advice stands on its own. My history (which will come later) is not the issue. I think this is a fair warning before anyone else spends many thousands on a Besenzoni product. Take it as consumer advice

 

[markc]

As discussed in this thread, we obviously don't know the details, but I did take a quick look at the Besenzoni site and they are very upfront with the type of service to expect from them and their dealers, so I think that Bouba has a fair point that their products and dealers are presented as a sort of 'package'. here's the text copied from their site...


SERVICES AND DEALERS
With the Customer Service Division, Besenzoni places at the disposal of boat owners a valuable reference point in every part of the world. We have over 160 points of customer service units, each with carefully selected technicians, trained by the company itself and duly qualified with specific certification. Expert staff, with excellent knowledge of product characteristics, who know how to deal with the most common problems and the trickiest ones, enacting appropriate intervention strategies. This is why choosing a Besenzoni product means having a surefire guarantee of top quality customer service throughout the product’s life cycle, even after the expiry of the warranty.

 

[Irish Rover]

I have great sympathy for any fellow boater who finds himself in a pickle because an expensive purchase or installation has not gone as hoped and expected. However I don't think it is fair to post a thread title such as this about a well known marine supplier without a shred of detail or background. I've no personal interest in this matter I just think fair is fair.

 

[petem]

As discussed in this thread, we obviously don't know the details, but I did take a quick look at the Besenzoni site and they are very upfront with the type of service to expect from them and their dealers, so I think that Bouba has a fair point that their products and dealers are presented as a sort of 'package'. here's the text copied from their site...


SERVICES AND DEALERS
With the Customer Service Division, Besenzoni places at the disposal of boat owners a valuable reference point in every part of the world. We have over 160 points of customer service units, each with carefully selected technicians, trained by the company itself and duly qualified with specific certification. Expert staff, with excellent knowledge of product characteristics, who know how to deal with the most common problems and the trickiest ones, enacting appropriate intervention strategies. This is why choosing a Besenzoni product means having a surefire guarantee of top quality customer service throughout the product’s life cycle, even after the expiry of the warranty.

Mark, all that says is that they know how to deal with the products. It doesn't suggest that they know how to reinforce the stern of a Beneteau Swift so that it can stand the relevant forces.

And how do we know what conversations Bouba has had with the fitters. Did they recommend that it was fitted on the opposite side to the door? Did they suggest that it was fitted low down? Did they suggest keeping the length of the paserelle to xx feet? Did Bouba ignore all these recommendations?

 

[Bouba]

As discussed in this thread, we obviously don't know the details, but I did take a quick look at the Besenzoni site and they are very upfront with the type of service to expect from them and their dealers, so I think that Bouba has a fair point that their products and dealers are presented as a sort of 'package'. here's the text copied from their site...


SERVICES AND DEALERS
With the Customer Service Division, Besenzoni places at the disposal of boat owners a valuable reference point in every part of the world. We have over 160 points of customer service units, each with carefully selected technicians, trained by the company itself and duly qualified with specific certification. Expert staff, with excellent knowledge of product characteristics, who know how to deal with the most common problems and the trickiest ones, enacting appropriate intervention strategies. This is why choosing a Besenzoni product means having a surefire guarantee of top quality customer service throughout the product’s life cycle, even after the expiry of the warranty.

This extract is from Besenzoni first answer to me
le problème n'est pas lié au produit que vous définissez comme bon, mais fait référence à son installation qui a été réalisée par une entreprise troisièmement, autonomes et indépendants de nous, avec lesquels nous entretenons des relations commerciales normales comme avec de nombreuses autres sociétés, mais cela ne signifie pas que nous pouvons assumer des responsabilités qui ne sont que les leurs pour l'activité qu'ils exercent.
Translated
the problem is not related to the product that you define as good, but refers to its installation which has been carried out by a third company, autonomous and independent of us, with whom we have normal commercial relations as with many other companies, but this does not mean that we can assume responsibilities that are only theirs for the activity they carry out.

This was repeated again and again

 

[penberth3]

I have great sympathy for any fellow boater who finds himself in a pickle because an expensive purchase or installation has not gone as hoped and expected. However I don't think it is fair to post a thread title such as this about a well known marine supplier without a shred of detail or background. I've no personal interest in this matter I just think fair is fair.

Yes the title is defamatory, never a good start, and no facts or detail. So possibly nothing wrong with the item or the installation and this is a "customer from hell"? Two sides to every story.

 

[Bouba]

Yes the title is defamatory, never a good start, and no facts or detail. So possibly nothing wrong with the item or the installation and this is a "customer from hell"? Two sides to every story.

Like I say, I will expand later. Perhaps everyone else knows about the disconnect between manufacturer and installer and perhaps I am not helping a single person. But if there is another person, making this major purchase, that thought if they go to the manufacturer’s website, put in their location then the name that pops up, that somehow a manufacturer would have enough pride and passion to not just fob you off, then fine.
I thought, wrongly according to some, that warning consumers sooner rather than later would be helpful.

 

[penberth3]

Like I say, I will expand later. Perhaps everyone else knows about the disconnect between manufacturer and installer and perhaps I am not helping a single person. But if there is another person, making this major purchase, that thought if they go to the manufacturer’s website, put in their location then the name that pops up, that somehow a manufacturer would have enough pride and passion to not just fob you off, then fine.
I thought, wrongly according to some, that warning consumers sooner rather than later would be helpful.

Still no detail about the actual problem?

 

[Bouba]

Still no detail about the actual problem?

As made, repeatedly, perfectly clearly, by the Besenzoni representative, there is no connection between the factory and the installer. So, I am also separating them in this thread. This is about the manufacturer and their role (or lack of) when things go wrong. I can talk about them now, because they have made it abundantly clear, that my business with them is finished.
The discussion about the installation is ongoing

 

[MapisM]

This extract is from Besenzoni first answer to me

Pardon my French J, but I can't for the life of me see anything wrong, in that statement.

I think the crux of the matter (as far as I can imagine that the problem could be) is the following:
Did the installer suggest a specific placement of the thing, and assured you of the compatibility with the boat construction, OR
did you ask him to stick the passerelle wherever you felt it would have been more convenient?

I am asking because to be honest I struggle to think of ANY placement on the transom of a ST34 which I would consider BOTH convenient AND solid enough. With the caveat that I'm saying this based on pics alone, but I'm skeptic that I would think differently after seeing the transom in flesh.

 

[BartW]

IMHO the best solution is to get a gelcoat repairer to fill the holes and fit it low and at the starboard side. Polar moments and subsequent stress in a high position is v.difficult to manage...
V.

+1

I would try to determine the problem, and get it fixed in cooperation with the installer and pay him a bit more.. .Instead of legal action,
(hopefully its not too late for that)

 

[MapisM]

I am also separating them in this thread. This is about the manufacturer and their role (or lack of) when things go wrong.

I'm afraid there's no point in making two separate issues, because if there is one, based on what you told us so far it's only with the installation.

I understand your aim and I sympathize with it, because as I said a Besenzoni passerelle would have never been my choice for a retrofit, for a bunch of completely different reasons.
But I'm afraid that this doesn't change the fact that you are not going to hurt them with this thread, even if it would give evidence that they did something wrong. Which it doesn't, even considering what they claim on their website, as quoted by markc.

 

[julians]

I'm making a few assumptions below, because of the lack of detail but.....

You'd expect an official installer of pasarelles to know where abouts a pasarelles can be fitted on a transom and whether it would need strengthening etc etc.

If I asked them to install in a specific place, I'd expect them to investigate and tell me if it was feasible, if it wasn't feasible they should refuse to put it there (or make me sign a waiver saying they couldn't guarantee it wouldn't fail) and recommend somewhere else it could be fitted. And if it wasn't compatible with my boat at all then they should refuse to sell me it.

I wouldn't expect them to install it and for it to crack when used.

A bit of a poor show from besenzoni in terms of not helping the customer come to a satisfactory conclusion if the above is roughly correct, but not a huge surprise.

On a smaller scale but similar principle I filled up my car with some contaminated fuel from a texaco petrol station, the contaminated fuel damaged the injectors, fuel lines, filters etc and cost around a grand to fix. The filling station didn't want to know and neither did texaco. In the end I took the flling station to court and won. Texacos stance was massively frustrating, they didn't care at all, but my contract was with the filling station, not texaco.

 

[Bouba]

I'm afraid there's no point in making two separate issues, because if there is one, based on what you told us so far it's only with the installation.

I understand your aim and I sympathize with it, because as I said a Besenzoni passerelle would have never been my choice for a retrofit, for a bunch of completely different reasons.
But I'm afraid that this doesn't change the fact that you are not going to hurt them with this thread, even if it would give evidence that they did something wrong. Which it doesn't, even considering what they claim on their website, as quoted by markc.

As I said P, my business with Besenzoni is finished so I can write about them. And as I said, if only one fellow boater heads my advice and does their due diligence, then I think I’ve done some good ??

 

[BruceK]

Jeez you people are a tough audience. He said he would expand in due course, no need to flog him to death because you want to know more and are frustrated at the delay. Whatever has happened he feels let down. That's irrefutable and stands perfectly well on its own, no other justification necessary.

 

[stelican]

Maybe it was a combination of unsatifactory mounting point and not following instruction for use.
No doubt time will tell.

 

[markc]

Mark, all that says is that they know how to deal with the products. It doesn't suggest that they know how to reinforce the stern of a Beneteau Swift so that it can stand the relevant forces.

And how do we know what conversations Bouba has had with the fitters. Did they recommend that it was fitted on the opposite side to the door? Did they suggest that it was fitted low down? Did they suggest keeping the length of the paserelle to xx feet? Did Bouba ignore all these recommendations?

I don't disagree with you Pete, and I made the point that we don't know the details. The point I was trying to make is that during the selling process, Bes make a point of telling the potential purchaser how great they are and all their installers are certificated etc., all building up confidence in the purchasers' mind. This must surely be with the intention of influencing the purchase decision, therefor one would expect the company to attempt to uphold this position should the need arise, rather than just washing their hands. On the other hand if they didn't attempt to leverage the quality of their accredited installers and network to make a sale, then one would accept less comeback.